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Rune Allnor wrote:
> On 25 Nov, 21:46, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voi...@notused.fi.invalid>
> wrote:
>> Rune Allnor wrote:
> 
>>>> For me, with Swedish as second native language, Norwegian sounds
>>>> like funny Swedish,
>>> *Formal* Norwegian (highly influenced by the dialects
>>> in the south-east central area, near Oslo) sounds like
>>> Donald Duck on helium. People with that kind of native
>>> dialect would struggle very hard to be taken seriously
>>> while speaking any non-native language.
>>> My native dialect seems to be a somewhat better staring
>>> point for speaking English, and particularly Italian.
>> Bokmål / nynorsk?
> 
> Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian: Bokmål
> (litteraly "the language of/from the books") was based on
> the Danish written language established by the Danish
> government during the "400-year night", when Norway was
> a subsidiary to the Danish crown between ~1380 and 1814.
> The civil servants had all been trained in Denmark, and
> wrote Danish fluently, so the obvious thing to do was to
> keep business as usual.
> 
> Since then the 'official' written Norwegian language was
> dominated by the heritage from the Danish civil service.
> To this day, some 200 years later, it is very little
> difference between written Norwegian Bokmål and written
> Danish. A non-native speaker of both the two languages
> would need to know what to look for, to see the difference.
> 
> However, bokmål is strictly a written language. Some
> people *claim* to speak bokmål, but in reality only
> speaks a normalized dialect that is the closest to the
> written language, but still far enough away that they
> are two different forms.
> 
> In the nationalromantic era that followed the 1814
> emancipation from the Danes there was a movement to
> establish a home-grown Norwegian written language,
> to replace the heritage from the Danes.
> 
> The idea was to compensate for the Danish influence,
> represented by the civil service and the urban
> establishment, by basing the new written language on
> the rural spoken dialects. Unfortunately, there was an
> over-compensation, in that the person in charge,
> Ivar Aasen, went to the furthest, most remote valleys
> he could possibly reach with 1820-30s communications.
> 
> So he ended up doubly alienating his intended audience,
> partially by using the most obscure rural non-Danish
> forms he could possibly find; partially by restricting
> his data to the areas near the south-east central,
> leaving a lot of the more remote areas, particularly
> around the coast, uncatered for.
> 
> Lots of people who might have been positive to the
> efforts were alienated by this over-compensation,
> leaving the population in two entrenched camps,
> fiercly disagreeing with each other. After a lot of
> hubbub, this written language has now become what
> is known as "nynorsk", "New Norwegian".
> 
> Repercussions of the ancient battles are stil raging,
> as kids think nynorsk (which in these days is based on
> an average of the spoken Norwegian dialects) is "grautmål",
> "porrage language", while they at the same time are
> battling with the not at all insignificant (well, all
> out irrational) quirks, twists and turns associated
> with making an artifical written language match up with
> their spoken languages.
> 
> As for myself, I speak a normalized (probably more
> so than I am aware) form of a northern dialect, that
> matches quite nicely with the present norm of nynorsk.
> (Not that it matters: I still write bokmål, as does
> some 80-90% of the population.) My dialect is non-typical
> Norwegian in that the 'melody' (prosidy?) matches quite
> well with both English (well, at least compared to most
> Norwegian dialects).
> 
> Many years ago I stayed a few months in Italy, with
> another Norwegian who spoke one of the dominant
> Norwegian dialects. People who heard us talk among
> ourselfs could not understand how we could possibly
> be talking the same language. During that stay I
> learned that the melody/prosidy my non-normalized
> Norwegian dialect is particularly well matched up
> with the Italian langauge.
> 
> Rune


Thanks, Rune. I'm afraid that all the dialects sound
like funny Swedish to me ...

-- 

-Tauno

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Rune Allnor schrieb:
> On 25 Nov, 00:23, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 24, 2:52 pm, Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacob...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/24/2009 12:37 PM, Marte Schwarz wrote:
>>>> Hi Jim,
>>> ...
>>> It's funny that a lot of the non-conversational words that I still
>>> remember are technical stuff like that:  vergasser = carburetor,
>>> einspritz = fuel injection.   I guess I've always been a car guy. ;)
>>> --
>>> Eric Jacobsen
>>> Minister of Algorithms
>>> Abineau Communicationshttp://www.abineau.com
>> I've waited 36 years for an excuse to drop "Zundverteilerkopf" into a
>> conversation.
> 
> 'Verteilerkopf' = 'distributor head' is obvious. Can't
> figure out 'Zund' without a dictionary?
> 
> Rune
  Hi Rune,
I know the word but I never really knew the exact meaning.
Looked it up at http://www.freedic.net/index.php, it means 
"Ehrfurchteinflössend" Awe-inspiring, it sounds very old fashioned in 
german.

greetings Frank

PS don´t forget to Zünd the Umlaut!

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Rune Allnor wrote:

> On 25 Nov, 21:46, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voi...@notused.fi.invalid>
> wrote:
>> Rune Allnor wrote:
> 
>> >> For me, with Swedish as second native language, Norwegian sounds
>> >> like funny Swedish,

For me as a german, who learned some Norwegian 18 years ago (and
using it in regular vacations) and who currently learns Swedish,
Swedish sounds like fuzzy Norwegian ;-)

>> Bokmål / nynorsk?
> 
> Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian: Bokmål
> (litteraly "the language of/from the books") was based on [..]

Takk, det var veldig interessant.

> As for myself, I speak a normalized (probably more
> so than I am aware) form of a northern dialect, that
> matches quite nicely with the present norm of nynorsk.

Yes; I've noticed that people in northern Norway use
words from Nynorsk (as far as I'm able to understand).

bye
Andreas
-- 
Andreas Hünnebeck | email: a...@gmx.de
----- privat ---- | www  : http://www.huennebeck-online.de
Fax/Anrufbeantworter: 0721/151-284301
GPG-Key: http://www.huennebeck-online.de/public_keys/andreas.asc
PGP-Key: http://www.huennebeck-online.de/public_keys/pgp_andreas.asc

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Lock: Flintlock mechanism.
Stock: wooden holder to fit your shoulder.
Barrel: tube which fires the bullet

It's not really common use, now that we've progressed past 
flintlocks.

-- 
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.


"Rich Grise" <r...@example.net> wrote in message 
news:p...@example.net...

Yikes! I'm 60 freakin' years old, and I swear, as Goddess is 
my witness,
that this is the first time in my life I realized that this 
refers to a
gun! All my life, I've assumed that it had something to do 
with shipping,
meaning "a full load of cargo."

"Stock" - well, compare "stockroom", and "barrel", well, 
that's a
container with staves, used for shipping all manner of 
stuff. The "Lock"
part, I simply assumed was something I didn't know about, 
maybe the
padlock on a treasure chest or something.

Thanks,
Rich

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:27:00 -0800, Rich Grise wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:46:25 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
>> 
>> If you have seen the movie "lock, stock and two smoking barrels" you
>> know what I mean. The dialogue in that film might look good in text,
>> but just sounds awkward, construed and stylized in the flesh.
> 
> Yikes! I'm 60 freakin' years old, and I swear, as Goddess is my witness,
> that this is the first time in my life I realized that this refers to a
> gun! All my life, I've assumed that it had something to do with
> shipping, meaning "a full load of cargo."
> 
> "Stock" - well, compare "stockroom", and "barrel", well, that's a
> container with staves, used for shipping all manner of stuff. The "Lock"
> part, I simply assumed was something I didn't know about, maybe the
> padlock on a treasure chest or something.

You're 60 freakin' years old and still have opportunities to stretch 
those old brain cells!

I knew what it meant whenever I thought hard about it, but for the most 
part it's just another cliché rattling around in the old brain pan.

(We need _new_ metaphors to replace these old clichés that you have to be 
a historian to understand their meaning.  How many kids these days -- 
even ones that shoot -- are going to 'get' "lock, stock and barrel"?)

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:27:00 -0800, Rich Grise wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:46:25 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
>> 
>> If you have seen the movie "lock, stock and two smoking barrels" you
>> know what I mean. The dialogue in that film might look good in text,
>> but just sounds awkward, construed and stylized in the flesh.
> 
> Yikes! I'm 60 freakin' years old, and I swear, as Goddess is my witness,
> that this is the first time in my life I realized that this refers to a
> gun! All my life, I've assumed that it had something to do with
> shipping, meaning "a full load of cargo."
> 
> "Stock" - well, compare "stockroom", and "barrel", well, that's a
> container with staves, used for shipping all manner of stuff. The "Lock"
> part, I simply assumed was something I didn't know about, maybe the
> padlock on a treasure chest or something.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich

And talking about clichés, Wikipedia has this quote from Salvidore Dalí: 
"The first man to compare the flabby cheeks of a young woman to a rose 
was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot."

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:17:46 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:

> On 25 Nov, 21:46, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voi...@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
>> Rune Allnor wrote:
> 
>> >> For me, with Swedish as second native language, Norwegian sounds
>> >> like funny Swedish,
>>
>> > *Formal* Norwegian (highly influenced by the dialects in the
>> > south-east central area, near Oslo) sounds like Donald Duck on
>> > helium. People with that kind of native dialect would struggle very
>> > hard to be taken seriously while speaking any non-native language.
>>
>> > My native dialect seems to be a somewhat better staring point for
>> > speaking English, and particularly Italian.
>>
>> Bokmål / nynorsk?
> 
> Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian: Bokmål (litteraly "the
> language of/from the books") was based on the Danish written language
> established by the Danish government during the "400-year night", when
> Norway was a subsidiary to the Danish crown between ~1380 and 1814. The
> civil servants had all been trained in Denmark, and wrote Danish
> fluently, so the obvious thing to do was to keep business as usual.
> 
> Since then the 'official' written Norwegian language was dominated by
> the heritage from the Danish civil service. To this day, some 200 years
> later, it is very little difference between written Norwegian Bokmål and
> written Danish. A non-native speaker of both the two languages would
> need to know what to look for, to see the difference.
> 
> However, bokmål is strictly a written language. Some people *claim* to
> speak bokmål, but in reality only speaks a normalized dialect that is
> the closest to the written language, but still far enough away that they
> are two different forms.
> 
> In the nationalromantic era that followed the 1814 emancipation from the
> Danes there was a movement to establish a home-grown Norwegian written
> language, to replace the heritage from the Danes.
> 
> The idea was to compensate for the Danish influence, represented by the
> civil service and the urban establishment, by basing the new written
> language on the rural spoken dialects. Unfortunately, there was an
> over-compensation, in that the person in charge, Ivar Aasen, went to the
> furthest, most remote valleys he could possibly reach with 1820-30s
> communications.
> 
> So he ended up doubly alienating his intended audience, partially by
> using the most obscure rural non-Danish forms he could possibly find;
> partially by restricting his data to the areas near the south-east
> central, leaving a lot of the more remote areas, particularly around the
> coast, uncatered for.
> 
> Lots of people who might have been positive to the efforts were
> alienated by this over-compensation, leaving the population in two
> entrenched camps, fiercly disagreeing with each other. After a lot of
> hubbub, this written language has now become what is known as "nynorsk",
> "New Norwegian".
> 
> Repercussions of the ancient battles are stil raging, as kids think
> nynorsk (which in these days is based on an average of the spoken
> Norwegian dialects) is "grautmål", "porrage language", while they at the
> same time are battling with the not at all insignificant (well, all out
> irrational) quirks, twists and turns associated with making an artifical
> written language match up with their spoken languages.
> 
> As for myself, I speak a normalized (probably more so than I am aware)
> form of a northern dialect, that matches quite nicely with the present
> norm of nynorsk. (Not that it matters: I still write bokmål, as does
> some 80-90% of the population.) My dialect is non-typical Norwegian in
> that the 'melody' (prosidy?) matches quite well with both English (well,
> at least compared to most Norwegian dialects).
> 
> Many years ago I stayed a few months in Italy, with another Norwegian
> who spoke one of the dominant Norwegian dialects. People who heard us
> talk among ourselfs could not understand how we could possibly be
> talking the same language. During that stay I learned that the
> melody/prosidy my non-normalized Norwegian dialect is particularly well
> matched up with the Italian langauge.
> 
> Rune

So what happens if someone just tries to write in their own dialect -- I 
assume that one would have to come up with spellings on one's own, at 
least to some extent.

Would this be greeted with joy as being sincere/nationalistic/avant-
guard, or would it be considered hackneyed?

How does a writer render dialog?

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com

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On Nov 27, 12:03=A0pm, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:17:46 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
> > On 25 Nov, 21:46, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voi...@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
> >> Rune Allnor wrote:
>
> >> >> For me, with Swedish as second native language, Norwegian sounds
> >> >> like funny Swedish,
>
> >> > *Formal* Norwegian (highly influenced by the dialects in the
> >> > south-east central area, near Oslo) sounds like Donald Duck on
> >> > helium. People with that kind of native dialect would struggle very
> >> > hard to be taken seriously while speaking any non-native language.
>
> >> > My native dialect seems to be a somewhat better staring point for
> >> > speaking English, and particularly Italian.
>
> >> Bokm=E5l / nynorsk?
>
> > Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian: Bokm=E5l (litteraly "th=
e
> > language of/from the books") was based on the Danish written language
> > established by the Danish government during the "400-year night", when
> > Norway was a subsidiary to the Danish crown between ~1380 and 1814. The
> > civil servants had all been trained in Denmark, and wrote Danish
> > fluently, so the obvious thing to do was to keep business as usual.
>
> > Since then the 'official' written Norwegian language was dominated by
> > the heritage from the Danish civil service. To this day, some 200 years
> > later, it is very little difference between written Norwegian Bokm=E5l =
and
> > written Danish. A non-native speaker of both the two languages would
> > need to know what to look for, to see the difference.
>
> > However, bokm=E5l is strictly a written language. Some people *claim* t=
o
> > speak bokm=E5l, but in reality only speaks a normalized dialect that is
> > the closest to the written language, but still far enough away that the=
y
> > are two different forms.
>
> > In the nationalromantic era that followed the 1814 emancipation from th=
e
> > Danes there was a movement to establish a home-grown Norwegian written
> > language, to replace the heritage from the Danes.
>
> > The idea was to compensate for the Danish influence, represented by the
> > civil service and the urban establishment, by basing the new written
> > language on the rural spoken dialects. Unfortunately, there was an
> > over-compensation, in that the person in charge, Ivar Aasen, went to th=
e
> > furthest, most remote valleys he could possibly reach with 1820-30s
> > communications.
>
> > So he ended up doubly alienating his intended audience, partially by
> > using the most obscure rural non-Danish forms he could possibly find;
> > partially by restricting his data to the areas near the south-east
> > central, leaving a lot of the more remote areas, particularly around th=
e
> > coast, uncatered for.
>
> > Lots of people who might have been positive to the efforts were
> > alienated by this over-compensation, leaving the population in two
> > entrenched camps, fiercly disagreeing with each other. After a lot of
> > hubbub, this written language has now become what is known as "nynorsk"=
,
> > "New Norwegian".
>
> > Repercussions of the ancient battles are stil raging, as kids think
> > nynorsk (which in these days is based on an average of the spoken
> > Norwegian dialects) is "grautm=E5l", "porrage language", while they at =
the
> > same time are battling with the not at all insignificant (well, all out
> > irrational) quirks, twists and turns associated with making an artifica=
l
> > written language match up with their spoken languages.
>
> > As for myself, I speak a normalized (probably more so than I am aware)
> > form of a northern dialect, that matches quite nicely with the present
> > norm of nynorsk. (Not that it matters: I still write bokm=E5l, as does
> > some 80-90% of the population.) My dialect is non-typical Norwegian in
> > that the 'melody' (prosidy?) matches quite well with both English (well=
,
> > at least compared to most Norwegian dialects).
>
> > Many years ago I stayed a few months in Italy, with another Norwegian
> > who spoke one of the dominant Norwegian dialects. People who heard us
> > talk among ourselfs could not understand how we could possibly be
> > talking the same language. During that stay I learned that the
> > melody/prosidy my non-normalized Norwegian dialect is particularly well
> > matched up with the Italian langauge.
>
> > Rune
>
> So what happens if someone just tries to write in their own dialect -- I
> assume that one would have to come up with spellings on one's own, at
> least to some extent.
>
> Would this be greeted with joy as being sincere/nationalistic/avant-
> guard, or would it be considered hackneyed?
>
> How does a writer render dialog?
>
> --www.wescottdesign.com


Read William Faulkner.

Yiddish spelling is a good example of phonetic German dialect.

jsw

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On 27 Nov., 18:03, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:17:46 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
> > On 25 Nov, 21:46, Tauno Voipio <tauno.voi...@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
> >> Rune Allnor wrote:
>
> >> >> For me, with Swedish as second native language, Norwegian sounds
> >> >> like funny Swedish,
>
> >> > *Formal* Norwegian (highly influenced by the dialects in the
> >> > south-east central area, near Oslo) sounds like Donald Duck on
> >> > helium. People with that kind of native dialect would struggle very
> >> > hard to be taken seriously while speaking any non-native language.
>
> >> > My native dialect seems to be a somewhat better staring point for
> >> > speaking English, and particularly Italian.
>
> >> Bokm=E5l / nynorsk?
>
> > Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian: Bokm=E5l (litteraly "th=
e
> > language of/from the books") was based on the Danish written language
> > established by the Danish government during the "400-year night", when
> > Norway was a subsidiary to the Danish crown between ~1380 and 1814. The
> > civil servants had all been trained in Denmark, and wrote Danish
> > fluently, so the obvious thing to do was to keep business as usual.
>
> > Since then the 'official' written Norwegian language was dominated by
> > the heritage from the Danish civil service. To this day, some 200 years
> > later, it is very little difference between written Norwegian Bokm=E5l =
and
> > written Danish. A non-native speaker of both the two languages would
> > need to know what to look for, to see the difference.
>
> > However, bokm=E5l is strictly a written language. Some people *claim* t=
o
> > speak bokm=E5l, but in reality only speaks a normalized dialect that is
> > the closest to the written language, but still far enough away that the=
y
> > are two different forms.
>
> > In the nationalromantic era that followed the 1814 emancipation from th=
e
> > Danes there was a movement to establish a home-grown Norwegian written
> > language, to replace the heritage from the Danes.
>
> > The idea was to compensate for the Danish influence, represented by the
> > civil service and the urban establishment, by basing the new written
> > language on the rural spoken dialects. Unfortunately, there was an
> > over-compensation, in that the person in charge, Ivar Aasen, went to th=
e
> > furthest, most remote valleys he could possibly reach with 1820-30s
> > communications.
>
> > So he ended up doubly alienating his intended audience, partially by
> > using the most obscure rural non-Danish forms he could possibly find;
> > partially by restricting his data to the areas near the south-east
> > central, leaving a lot of the more remote areas, particularly around th=
e
> > coast, uncatered for.
>
> > Lots of people who might have been positive to the efforts were
> > alienated by this over-compensation, leaving the population in two
> > entrenched camps, fiercly disagreeing with each other. After a lot of
> > hubbub, this written language has now become what is known as "nynorsk"=
,
> > "New Norwegian".
>
> > Repercussions of the ancient battles are stil raging, as kids think
> > nynorsk (which in these days is based on an average of the spoken
> > Norwegian dialects) is "grautm=E5l", "porrage language", while they at =
the
> > same time are battling with the not at all insignificant (well, all out
> > irrational) quirks, twists and turns associated with making an artifica=
l
> > written language match up with their spoken languages.
>
> > As for myself, I speak a normalized (probably more so than I am aware)
> > form of a northern dialect, that matches quite nicely with the present
> > norm of nynorsk. (Not that it matters: I still write bokm=E5l, as does
> > some 80-90% of the population.) My dialect is non-typical Norwegian in
> > that the 'melody' (prosidy?) matches quite well with both English (well=
,
> > at least compared to most Norwegian dialects).
>
> > Many years ago I stayed a few months in Italy, with another Norwegian
> > who spoke one of the dominant Norwegian dialects. People who heard us
> > talk among ourselfs could not understand how we could possibly be
> > talking the same language. During that stay I learned that the
> > melody/prosidy my non-normalized Norwegian dialect is particularly well
> > matched up with the Italian langauge.
>
> > Rune
>
> So what happens if someone just tries to write in their own dialect -- I
> assume that one would have to come up with spellings on one's own, at
> least to some extent.
>
> Would this be greeted with joy as being sincere/nationalistic/avant-
> guard, or would it be considered hackneyed?
>
> How does a writer render dialog?
>
> --www.wescottdesign.com

I guess it would be just as you would if you wanted
to write a dialect in english, invent you own spelling

To me as a dane written norwegian looks like danish
someone who can't spell too good wrote :)
danish spelling often isn't like the sound of the words,
in norwegian it looks like everything is spelled
like it sounds,

-Lasse

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On 27 Nov, 18:03, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:17:46 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:

> >> Bokm=E5l / nynorsk?
>
> > Those are the two *written* forms of Norwegian:
...
> So what happens if someone just tries to write in their own dialect -- I
> assume that one would have to come up with spellings on one's own, at
> least to some extent.

It *can* be done, and works to whatever extent the reader
is familiar with the dialect. The problem is that everything
depends on the reader being familiar with intonation and
grammar.

Formal Norwegian distinguishes between singular and plural
the same way English does, by appending an ending to the
noun. In English one appends '-s' or '-ses'; in Norwegian
one appends '-er'. So with the noun 'sau' (Eng. 'sheep'),
the (official) singular is 'sau' and the (official) plural
is 'sauer'.

However, in my (almost) native dialect (we moved to the area
when I was about 6), this is messed up by the fact that any
endings are consistently chopped off, and replaced by a
very subtle change in intonation. With the example above,
the singular is still 'sau', but the plural is also 'sau' but
with an almost imperceptible change of intonation.

I was about six when I first learnd these things, so I
used to know how to phrase the distinction myself, and
I am perfectly able to hear better speakers of this dialect
than myself who use it (my own spoken language has changed
quite a bit sine I left the area). My parents, who were in
their early thirties when we moved to the area, might know
of the general mechanism, but seem to be unable to recognize,
let alone use, this subtle effect.

Writing in this dialect would strip a reader unfamiliar
with these idiosyncracies of just about every grammatic
mechanism he is uses to employ to make sense of the
semantics.

This might be an extreme example (the dialects of this
particular area usually recieve significant attention in
schoolbooks), but all dialects tend to present similar
types of problems.

> Would this be greeted with joy as being sincere/nationalistic/avant-
> guard, or would it be considered hackneyed?

People who write dialect tend to write for a local audience,
like in county yearbooks etc.

But you are onto something: Whenever there are significant
divisions of opinions in the population, they tend to follow
the (written) language division: Environmentalists tend to
write nynorsk; No-to-EU people (we have refused to join the EU
in two referenda, 1972 and 1994) tend to write nynorsk;
the populus of the Norwegian equivalent to the Bible belt
tend to write nynorsk; the people in the fundamental economical
vocations, like fishermen, tend to write nynorsk. People
in the rural, remote areas (along the coast, in the valleys)
tend to write nynorsk.

Well, 'tend to' means that the relative fractions of nynorsk
writers are higher in the mentioned groups than in the
whole population.

> How does a writer render dialog?

Very formally. That is, in formal/normalized language
with phrasings that wouldn't work orally. One might
use certain grammatic or other stereotypes to indicate
that a character speaks a certain dialect, but very
seldomly and very cautiosly.

Rune

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