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Discussion Groups | Comp.DSP | Mistakes in the DVB-T standard?
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Mistakes in the DVB-T standard? - lanbaba - 2005-10-04 04:39:00
Hi, Are there any DVB-T experts around? I found something weired in ETSI EN 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) and want to have verifications for my suspect. I implemented a DVB-T receiver according to the DVB-T physical layer standard ETSI EN 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) but it does not work with real signals in the air. It turns out that R'i and Ri in the bit permutation in the symbol interleaver is exchanged, i.e., the standard does not describe what is implemented!!!! In the standard: Table 3a: Bit permutations for the 2K mode ___________________________________________________________ R'i bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | ___________________________________________________________ Ri bit positions | 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | ___________________________________________________________ My observation: (it works) ___________________________________________________________ Ri bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | ___________________________________________________________ R'i bit positions| 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | ___________________________________________________________ Can anyone share my view? Cheers, Lanbaba This message was sent using the Comp.DSP web interface on www.DSPRelated.com______________________________
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Re: Mistakes in the DVB-T standard? - Dal - 2005-10-04 15:29:00
lanbaba wrote: > Hi, > > Are there any DVB-T experts around? I found something weired in ETSI EN > 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) and want to have verifications for my suspect. > > I implemented a DVB-T receiver according to the DVB-T physical layer > standard ETSI EN 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) but it does not work with real > signals in the air. It turns out that R'i and Ri in the bit permutation in > the symbol interleaver is exchanged, i.e., the standard does not describe > what is implemented!!!! > > In the standard: > Table 3a: Bit permutations for the 2K mode > ___________________________________________________________ > R'i bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | > ___________________________________________________________ > Ri bit positions | 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | > ___________________________________________________________ > > My observation: (it works) > ___________________________________________________________ > Ri bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | > ___________________________________________________________ > R'i bit positions| 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Can anyone share my view? > > Cheers, Lanbaba > > > > This message was sent using the Comp.DSP web interface on > www.DSPRelated.com The standard defines the transmitter, not the receiver. The receiver has to reverse the operation, is this not what you are seeing?______________________________
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Re: Mistakes in the DVB-T standard? - Mark - 2005-10-04 22:14:00
Dal wrote: > lanbaba wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Are there any DVB-T experts around? I found something weired in ETSI EN > > 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) and want to have verifications for my suspect. > > > > I implemented a DVB-T receiver according to the DVB-T physical layer > > standard ETSI EN 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) but it does not work with real > > signals in the air. It turns out that R'i and Ri in the bit permutation in > > the symbol interleaver is exchanged, i.e., the standard does not describe > > what is implemented!!!! > > > > In the standard: > > Table 3a: Bit permutations for the 2K mode > > ___________________________________________________________ > > R'i bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Ri bit positions | 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > My observation: (it works) > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Ri bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | > > ___________________________________________________________ > > R'i bit positions| 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Can anyone share my view? > > > > Cheers, Lanbaba > > > > > > > > This message was sent using the Comp.DSP web interface on > > www.DSPRelated.com > > The standard defines the transmitter, not the receiver. > > The receiver has to reverse the operation, is this not what you are seeing? another possibility is that the "off air" signal you have is out of a TV tuner at IF frequency in which case the original RF signal was translated in frequency by an LO ad a "mixer". If so, the signal may have undergone a "spectral inversion" which will have the same effect as reversing the I and Q components and reversing the sense of the differentiual encoding. Mark______________________________
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Re: Mistakes in the DVB-T standard? - lanbaba - 2005-10-05 07:23:00
Thank you for all answers. The bug was still in my Rx implementation, and the standard is correct. The origianl post was a false alarm... This message was sent using the Comp.DSP web interface on www.DSPRelated.com______________________________
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Re: Mistakes in the DVB-T standard? - Dal - 2005-10-05 18:30:00
Mark wrote: > Dal wrote: > >>lanbaba wrote: >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>Are there any DVB-T experts around? I found something weired in ETSI EN >>>300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) and want to have verifications for my suspect. >>> >>>I implemented a DVB-T receiver according to the DVB-T physical layer >>>standard ETSI EN 300744 v.1.5.1 (2004-11) but it does not work with real >>>signals in the air. It turns out that R'i and Ri in the bit permutation in >>>the symbol interleaver is exchanged, i.e., the standard does not describe >>>what is implemented!!!! >>> >>>In the standard: >>>Table 3a: Bit permutations for the 2K mode >>>___________________________________________________________ >>>R'i bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | >>>___________________________________________________________ >>>Ri bit positions | 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | >>>___________________________________________________________ >>> >>>My observation: (it works) >>>___________________________________________________________ >>>Ri bit positions | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | >>>___________________________________________________________ >>>R'i bit positions| 0 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 3 | 4 | >>>___________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>>Can anyone share my view? >>> >>>Cheers, Lanbaba >>> >>> >>> >>>This message was sent using the Comp.DSP web interface on >>>www.DSPRelated.com >> >>The standard defines the transmitter, not the receiver. >> >>The receiver has to reverse the operation, is this not what you are seeing? > > > > another possibility is that the "off air" signal you have is out of a > TV tuner at IF frequency in which case the original RF signal was > translated in frequency by an LO ad a "mixer". If so, the signal may > have undergone a "spectral inversion" which will have the same effect > as reversing the I and Q components and reversing the sense of the > differentiual encoding. > > Mark > I think you will struggle to explain any further how this could result in the observed problem!______________________________
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