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Hi guys,

If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
second harmonic ?

Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 220.0, 
330.0, 440.0 ?

I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but I'm 
really not sure.

Thanks,
Robert A.

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Robert A. wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
> second harmonic ?
> 
> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 220.0, 
> 330.0, 440.0 ?
> 
> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but I'm 
> really not sure.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert A.

I've always referred to the 2x fundamental as the 2nd harmonic.  I'll 
bet usage varies considerably here -- it'll be interesting to see what 
the rest of the group says.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

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Robert A. wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
> second harmonic ?
> 
> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 220.0, 
> 330.0, 440.0 ?
> 
> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but I'm 
> really not sure.
> 

If the frequency is N times of the fundamental, then it is called the 
Nth harmonic. So the fundamental itself is the first harmonic. Isn't it?

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com

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Tim Wescott wrote:
> Robert A. wrote:
> 
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
>> second harmonic ?
>>
>> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 
>> 220.0, 330.0, 440.0 ?
>>
>> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but 
>> I'm really not sure.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Robert A.
> 
> 
> I've always referred to the 2x fundamental as the 2nd harmonic.  I'll 
> bet usage varies considerably here -- it'll be interesting to see what 
> the rest of the group says.
> 

Yes, the term "harmonic" signifies "mode of vibration", and the 1st mode 
of vibration is synonymously called the fundamental. And harmonic N is 
then simply fundamental*N Hz. Usage does not /should not vary - this is 
how it is and always has been!



Richard Dobson

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Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
> 
> 
> Robert A. wrote:
> 
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
>> second harmonic ?
>>
>> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 
>> 220.0, 330.0, 440.0 ?
>>
>> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but 
>> I'm really not sure.
>>
> 
> If the frequency is N times of the fundamental, then it is called the 
> Nth harmonic. So the fundamental itself is the first harmonic. Isn't it?

It's not good language, but that's how it is. (Matlab wasn't around when 
the terminology developed.)

Robert A.,

Don't you find it a bit queer to call 220 the first harmonic and even at 
the same time? One is an odd number.

Tim,

Usage does indeed vary, but then so does the pronunciation of "nuclear". 
(Exactly why is uncular.)

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

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Tim Wescott wrote:
> Robert A. wrote:
> 
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or 
>> second harmonic ?
>>
>> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0, 
>> 220.0, 330.0, 440.0 ?
>>
>> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but 
>> I'm really not sure.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Robert A.
> 
> I've always referred to the 2x fundamental as the 2nd harmonic.  I'll 
> bet usage varies considerably here -- it'll be interesting to see what 
> the rest of the group says.
> 
I think usage varies little, though some people will always use terms in 
peculiar ways (see Eric Jacobson on what constitutes a sensible way to 
refer to channel capacity :-) ). However, there are two terms, the 
second of which seems to be falling into disuse:

2 x fundamental == 2nd harmonic
2 x fundamental == 1st overtone

Regards,
Steve

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Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> writes:

> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>> Robert A. wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or
>>> second harmonic ?
>>>
>>> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0,
>>> 220.0, 330.0, 440.0 ?
>>>
>>> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even
>>> but I'm really not sure.
>>>
>> If the frequency is N times of the fundamental, then it is called
>> the Nth harmonic. So the fundamental itself is the first
>> harmonic. Isn't it?
>
> It's not good language, but that's how it is. (Matlab wasn't around
> when the terminology developed.)
>
> Robert A.,
>
> Don't you find it a bit queer to call 220 the first harmonic and even
> at the same time? One is an odd number.
>
> Tim,
>
> Usage does indeed vary, but then so does the pronunciation of
> "nuclear". (Exactly why is uncular.)

Just as another datapoint, the text I always look to for the
fundamentals, [signalsandsystems], define it the way Vladimir
first did.

--Randy

PS: I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, and Merry Christmas!
(getting in the Christmas mood listening to "Delilah"...)

@BOOK{signalsandsystems,
  title = "{Signals and Systems}",
  author = "{Alan~V.~Oppenheim, Alan~S.~Willsky, with Ian~T.~Young}",
  publisher = "Prentice Hall",
  year = "1983"}

-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "I met someone who looks alot like you,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %             she does the things you do, 
%%% 919-577-9882                %                     but she is an IBM."
%%%% <y...@ieee.org>           %        'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO   
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

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Jerry Avins wrote:

>>> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or=20
>>> second harmonic ?


Looks like everything is mixed up here.
There could be either 120V/60Hz or 220V/50Hz, but it is not what is=20
generally referred as harmonics.


>>> Also, which are the even and odd harmonics in this series: 110.0,=20
>>> 220.0, 330.0, 440.0 ?

120, 220, 380, 2.4kV, 4.8kV, 6.3kV... Even numbers are used in EU, odd - =

in the US.

>>> I always considered 220.0 to be the first harmonic and also even but =

>>> I'm really not sure.

I also used to think that 220 is the way it should be, but now I am not=20
sure.

>>
>> If the frequency is N times of the fundamental, then it is called the =

>> Nth harmonic. So the fundamental itself is the first harmonic. Isn't i=
t?
>=20
> It's not good language, but that's how it is.

=D7=F2=EE =EF=EE=E4=E5=EB=E0=E5=F8=FC. =CD=E0=E4=E5=FE=F1=FC, =F2=E0=EA =E1=
=F3=E4=E5=F2 =EF=EE=ED=FF=F2=ED=E5=E5:
=C8=F4 =E7=E5 =F4=F0=E8=EA=E2=E5=ED=F1=E8 =E8=E7 =FD=ED =F2=E0=E9=EC=E7 =EE=
=F4 =E7=E5 =F4=E0=ED=E4=E0=EC=E5=ED=F2=E0=EB, =E7=E5=ED =E8=F2 =E8=E7 =EA=
=EE=EB=E5=E4 =E7=E5 =FD=ED=F1=20
=F5=E0=F0=EC=EE=ED=E8=EA.

Is it better that way?

> (Matlab wasn't around when=20
> the terminology developed.)

Can you clarify that. I didn't get it.

>=20
> Robert A.,
>=20
> Don't you find it a bit queer to call 220 the first harmonic and even a=
t=20
> the same time? One is an odd number.

The 220 is the voltage, and "one" is probably the current rating.

>=20
> Tim,
>=20
> Usage does indeed vary, but then so does the pronunciation of "nuclear"=
=2E=20
> (Exactly why is uncular.)

I can't get the difference between "rear" and "rare".


VLV

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Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:

    ...

> ×òî ïîäåëàåøü. Íàäåþñü, òàê áóäåò ïîíÿòíåå:
> Èô çå ôðèêâåíñè èç ýí òàéìç îô çå ôàíäàìåíòàë, çåí èò èç êîëåä çå ýíñ 
> õàðìîíèê.
> 
> Is it better that way?

I don't know. My father spoke Russian, but I never learned how. In this 
country, my mother's mother's relatives are variously named Gorelic, 
Horlick, and combinations of those. Her father's relatives are Gotkin, 
Hotkin, and (via France) Hotkine.

>> (Matlab wasn't around when the terminology developed.)
> 
> Can you clarify that. I didn't get it.

Matlab indices are off by one, at least off by one from the way 
engineers usually use them.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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Robert A. skrev:
> Hi guys,
>
> If the fundamental is 110.0hz would 220.0hz be called the first or
> second harmonic ?

Maybe I'm mixing things up, either in terminology or languages,
but I think of the fundamental as 0th harmonic and 2 x fundamental
as 1st harmonic.

Mind you, the term in Norwegian is "overharmonisk" ("over
harmonic") that I don't think I have seen in English. In Norwegian
the word "overtone" is a term for generic harmonics, and does
not relate -- at least the way I know it -- to specific frequency
ratios.

Clear as mud. As all these linguistic discussions... 

Rune

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