In article <a9a66e77-bd01-4cb3-ada0-e6e24749ab93@f41g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
dbd  <dbd@ieee.org> wrote:
>On Mar 23, 3:32 pm, Erik de Castro Lopo <nos...@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
>> dbd wrote:
<SNIP>
>>   3) Isn't the IEEE an official non-profit organisation? Why are you
>>       suggesting that a small company is a good comparison [0].
>Non-profit organizations under 501(C)(3) are corporations. The example
>you give: the Internet Archive, is a small 501(C)(3) non-profit
>corporation. So, I guess we are agreed on it as a suitable kind of
>example. What do you suggest that that kind of operation should charge
>to distribute the IEEE materials to be able to replace the current
>IEEE income from them?

This is hard to say. But it is not impossible that a very low rate
(like one cent per page) would generate more income.
In that case even students buy articles just to be sure not to
overlook something.

This being said, I don't think it is legitimate for an organisation
like IEEE to opt for a price level that gives optimal profit.
After all it has a monopoly.

Remember this. Copyright is just a law. It can be abolished by
a government, if it no longer serves its intended purposes.
If you hear a song, remember it and sing it, you are not violating
Human Rights. If somebody shows you a math trick, or you infer it,
and use it, you are not violating Human Rights.

>
>Dale B. Dalrymple

Groetjes Albert

--
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 03:46:16 +0000 (UTC), spope33@speedymail.org
(Steve Pope) wrote:

>Erik de Castro Lopo  <nospam@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
>
>>  - As I understand it authors who have their papers accepted into IEEE
>>    journals pay money to help with the publishing.
>>
>> -  Paper reviewers and editors provide their services for free.
>>
>> - Univesitiy  libraries around the world pay extortionate fees to carry
>>   IEEE journals.
>
>>Now I ask, where does all  this money go and wouldn't it be relatively
>>easy to provide the same (or hopefully even better) quality  of
>>information for a fraction of the cost?
>
>Often you can go to a University library and obtain the paper
>in question at no charge.  If you are not near such a library,
>well, that is just one of the many disadvantages of not living in
>a major (or at least medium-sized) city.
>
>Steve

Or at least close enough to make it worthwhile.   I can go down to ASU
and get access to papers, but it's a big time commitment to make the
trip.  Plus I'll have to pay for parking while there.  In a practical
sense, if I don't like the download fee I'm sure not gonna like
spending the time it'll take to get to campus and back.

So I think people who have convenient enough access to a University
library may be a small, but fortunate, minority.   I wish it were
easier for me, as the "scenery" at ASU always makes for a nice trip.

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

Blog: http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1/hf/Eric_Jacobsen.php

dbd wrote:

> If you don't mean free, What price do
> you mean. How can we tell if IEEE has done the job if you can't give a
> number?

Under US$5 for non-members would mean that if I would be unlikely to
hesitate to pay for an article that I think may be interesting.

> What do you suggest that that kind of operation should charge
> to distribute the IEEE materials to be able to replace the current
> IEEE income from them?

I suggest that the IEEE has learned to spend all of its present
income with no thought to efficiency and no competition.

Erik
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
http://www.mega-nerd.com/

Rune Allnor  <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:

>Yep. But at least here, publishers (or rather, their employers)
>are awarded government funding on a per publication basis.

That would explain the tons and tons of repetitive technical
papers published, it seems...

S.

Erik de Castro Lopo  <nospam@mega-nerd.com> wrote:

>  - As I understand it authors who have their papers accepted into IEEE
>    journals pay money to help with the publishing.
>
> -  Paper reviewers and editors provide their services for free.
>
> - Univesitiy  libraries around the world pay extortionate fees to carry
>   IEEE journals.

>Now I ask, where does all  this money go and wouldn't it be relatively
>easy to provide the same (or hopefully even better) quality  of
>information for a fraction of the cost?

Often you can go to a University library and obtain the paper
in question at no charge.  If you are not near such a library,
well, that is just one of the many disadvantages of not living in
a major (or at least medium-sized) city.

Steve

On Mar 23, 3:32 pm, Erik de Castro Lopo <nos...@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
> dbd wrote:
> > What would you do if you were a small company CEO and your company CIO
> > said he would:
> > "acquire several hundred thousand
> > articles and maintain search function and adequate secure access
> > bandwidth to them in a reliable (in the multi-decade sense)"
> > and give them away for free?
>
> This is just wrong on so many counts.
>
>  1)  I *never* said give them away for free. I did say US$13 for
>       members and US$25 for non-members was way too high.
Actually, I thought your reference to a "lower bound" meant free. But
I did think you were kidding. If you don't mean free, What price do
you mean. How can we tell if IEEE has done the job if you can't give a
number?
>
>   2) There is no need to acquire these articles, the IEEE already
>       has them in a form suitable for delivery over the internet.
The Google organization was suggested as a model for distribution. It
owns no copyrights but plans to collect fees for distributing the
property of others. We don't know yet what it will charge. What do you
think would be the right charges for the IEEE situation?
>
>   3) Isn't the IEEE an official non-profit organisation? Why are you
>       suggesting that a small company is a good comparison [0].
Non-profit organizations under 501(C)(3) are corporations. The example
you give: the Internet Archive, is a small 501(C)(3) non-profit
corporation. So, I guess we are agreed on it as a suitable kind of
example. What do you suggest that that kind of operation should charge
to distribute the IEEE materials to be able to replace the current
IEEE income from them?
>
> The files are relatively small (in comparison to video files), the demand
> is relatively low (in comparision to some videos on say youtube). The
> delivery of this content is a rpiblem that has been solved thousands of
> times and its not difficult.
>
> I would actually suggest that the Internet Archive :
>
>    http://www.archive.org/index.php
>
> is a suitable comparison to the IEEE. The IA is also non-profit, but
> has significantly more difficult data volume and delivery figures.
>
> I would love to see a comparison bytes delivered per dollar, IA vs IEEE.
I'd like to see that combined with a suggestion of the price point for
delivery of IEEE content people have claimed would replace current
IEEE income while delivering the materials to more people.
>
> Erik
>
> [0] I am very, very well aware of the finacial constraints of small
>      companies. I work for a small venture capital funded startup which
>      looks like its one of the few that will survive the current
>      financial situation.

Dale B. Dalrymple

dbd wrote:

> What would you do if you were a small company CEO and your company CIO
> said he would:
> "acquire several hundred thousand
> articles and maintain search function and adequate secure access
> bandwidth to them in a reliable (in the multi-decade sense)"
> and give them away for free?

This is just wrong on so many counts.

 1)  I *never* said give them away for free. I did say US$13 for
      members and US$25 for non-members was way too high.

  2) There is no need to acquire these articles, the IEEE already
      has them in a form suitable for delivery over the internet.

  3) Isn't the IEEE an official non-profit organisation? Why are you
      suggesting that a small company is a good comparison [0].

The files are relatively small (in comparison to video files), the demand
is relatively low (in comparision to some videos on say youtube). The
delivery of this content is a rpiblem that has been solved thousands of
times and its not difficult.

I would actually suggest that the Internet Archive :

    http://www.archive.org/index.php

is a suitable comparison to the IEEE. The IA is also non-profit, but
has significantly more difficult data volume and delivery figures.

I would love to see a comparison bytes delivered per dollar, IA vs IEEE.

Erik

[0] I am very, very well aware of the finacial constraints of small
     companies. I work for a small venture capital funded startup which
     looks like its one of the few that will survive the current
     financial situation.

On 23 Mar, 05:56, dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Mar 22, 9:35 pm, Erik de Castro Lopo <nos...@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
>
> > dbd wrote:
> > > What do you think it would actually cost? If you think there is a
> > > point here, what are -your- numbers?
>
> > I'm &#4294967295;an engineer, not an accountant, but if my accountant told me I had
> > to charge US$13 to deliver a PDF over the internet I'd be finding a
> > new accountant.
>
> > Erik
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Erik de Castro Lopohttp://www.mega-nerd.com/erikd/Blog/
>
> What would you do if you were a small company CEO and your company CIO
> said he would:
> "acquire several hundred thousand
> articles and maintain search function and adequate secure access
> bandwidth to them in a reliable (in the multi-decade sense)"
> and give them away for free?

...which brings back the question why IEEE exists at all?
To serve as an archive for texts no one will read? To
become a Master of Ceremony in the Rites of Obtaining
Academic Degrees, where only the act of publishing articles
count, with no regard of usefulness of what these articles
contain?

Or to serve as a forum where professionals exchange ideas
and keep up with what goes on in the world?

The articles are there already. The infrastructure for
accessing them is there already. There are people out
there who *both* would like to get access to those
articles *and* are willing to pay for them - not current
prices, but pay nontheless.

I don't believe for a minute that the service is limited
by, or costs are driven by, hardware capacity or other
support functions that go down under the pressure of
transaction volumes - if that's your claim, please
come up with supporting documentation. As you said,
people who think the price is too high don't buy. IEEE
and similar professional communities already debate what
they should offer, both to current members as well as to
students, to maintain members and increase recruitment.

So why not price the articles low, such that people
who want them and maybe even need them, also actually
buy them?

Ford, which was one of the leading automotive companies
for a century, was founded on that very idea. It works.

Rune

On Mar 22, 9:35 pm, Erik de Castro Lopo <nos...@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
> dbd wrote:
> > What do you think it would actually cost? If you think there is a
> > point here, what are -your- numbers?
>
> I'm  an engineer, not an accountant, but if my accountant told me I had
> to charge US$13 to deliver a PDF over the internet I'd be finding a
> new accountant.
>
> Erik
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Erik de Castro Lopohttp://www.mega-nerd.com/erikd/Blog/

What would you do if you were a small company CEO and your company CIO
said he would:
"acquire several hundred thousand
articles and maintain search function and adequate secure access
bandwidth to them in a reliable (in the multi-decade sense)"
and give them away for free?

Dale B. Dalrymple