Reply by wiltonmagik May 12, 20092009-05-12
I am assuming that you are receiving only one carrier (unlike a FM
receiver, where you receive many different carriers for different
stations).

Did you translate your message spectrum from 0 Hz to 5 Mhz while
modulating it?

If so, then to get your message signal back, you (ideally) need to sample
it at 2*2 = 4 Mhz.(and not twice the carrier+message BW) Ant then pass it
through an ideal Low Pass Filter of cutoff = 1Mhz. The reason being that
you will get other images of message spectrum as well after sampling, but
they will not ALIAS as long as you sample at twice their bandwidth.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you. 

>On May 6, 5:41=A0am, Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote: >> On 2009-05-05, aitezaz....@gmail.com <aitezaz....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means >> > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 =3D 12 MHz. But I have heard
tha=
>t >> > it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate >> >> I asked a very similar question a while ago, only in the context of a >> DAC. =A0In the same way that you quickly rejected "4MHz" as your
sampling
>> rate because your data is not perfectly bandpass filtered you can
reject
>> 12MHz because your data is not perfectly lowpass filtered. =A0Whatever >> analog filter you have on your input has a transition band.
=A0Wherever
>> the rolloff of that filter crosses the limit of your tolerance for >> aliasing is the true bandwidth of your input (it's a little more
tricky
>> than that because the first bit of noise above Nyquist folds back onto >> the extra bit of sampling bandwidth you don't care about anyway). >> >> -- >> Ben Jackson AD7GD >> <b...@ben.com>http://www.ben.com/ > >Thanks for replies guys. >Yes Ben you got it right and I have found the same answer on >http://www.dspdesignline.com/howto/207500439 >We cannot sample the signal on twice the maximum frequency present in >the signal because in this case the anti aliasing filter would be >impossible to realize. Instead, we should sample it at twice the ws >where ws is the starting frequency of stop band. >Now, the next question that i would like to ask is how much >oversampled a signal should be (as a rule of thumb) so that we can >make practically feasible anti aliasing filters(subject to current >technology of analog filters). > >Thanks for your time >
Reply by Tim Wescott May 6, 20092009-05-06
aitezaz.abd@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 6, 5:41 am, Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote: >> On 2009-05-05, aitezaz....@gmail.com <aitezaz....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means >>> the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that >>> it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate >> I asked a very similar question a while ago, only in the context of a >> DAC. In the same way that you quickly rejected "4MHz" as your sampling
-- snip --
> Now, the next question that i would like to ask is how much > oversampled a signal should be (as a rule of thumb) so that we can > make practically feasible anti aliasing filters(subject to current > technology of analog filters).
There aren't any good ones. Between what you might want to do, what is available, what your skills are, what the skills of the folks you're working with, whether you're trying to optimize for engineering cost or manufacturing cost -- there's too many widely-varying good answers for there to be a rule of thumb. It's work. Understand the problem, understand what's available, understand how to wrangle the math, circuits and software to get what you want, then assess what works for your particular problem -- and keep in mind that it may be different for the next product, or the next production cycle of the existing product. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Reply by Ben Jackson May 6, 20092009-05-06
On 2009-05-06, aitezaz.abd@gmail.com <aitezaz.abd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now, the next question that i would like to ask is how much > oversampled a signal should be (as a rule of thumb) so that we can > make practically feasible anti aliasing filters(subject to current > technology of analog filters).
A better question is to compare the cost (in terms of board area, parts cost, design time, manufacturability, etc) of a better analog filter versus a faster ADC and more digital processing capability. Remember that you only have to process the data at the input rate enough to digitally lowpass filter it and decimate it down to the actual bandwidth. To answer your original question look at any article on analog filters and the rolloff of filters as a function of filter order. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD <ben@ben.com> http://www.ben.com/
Reply by May 6, 20092009-05-06
On May 6, 5:41&#2013266080;am, Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote:
> On 2009-05-05, aitezaz....@gmail.com <aitezaz....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means > > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that > > it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate > > I asked a very similar question a while ago, only in the context of a > DAC. &#2013266080;In the same way that you quickly rejected "4MHz" as your sampling > rate because your data is not perfectly bandpass filtered you can reject > 12MHz because your data is not perfectly lowpass filtered. &#2013266080;Whatever > analog filter you have on your input has a transition band. &#2013266080;Wherever > the rolloff of that filter crosses the limit of your tolerance for > aliasing is the true bandwidth of your input (it's a little more tricky > than that because the first bit of noise above Nyquist folds back onto > the extra bit of sampling bandwidth you don't care about anyway). > > -- > Ben Jackson AD7GD > <b...@ben.com>http://www.ben.com/
Thanks for replies guys. Yes Ben you got it right and I have found the same answer on http://www.dspdesignline.com/howto/207500439 We cannot sample the signal on twice the maximum frequency present in the signal because in this case the anti aliasing filter would be impossible to realize. Instead, we should sample it at twice the ws where ws is the starting frequency of stop band. Now, the next question that i would like to ask is how much oversampled a signal should be (as a rule of thumb) so that we can make practically feasible anti aliasing filters(subject to current technology of analog filters). Thanks for your time
Reply by Ben Jackson May 5, 20092009-05-05
On 2009-05-05, aitezaz.abd@gmail.com <aitezaz.abd@gmail.com> wrote:
> i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that > it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate
I asked a very similar question a while ago, only in the context of a DAC. In the same way that you quickly rejected "4MHz" as your sampling rate because your data is not perfectly bandpass filtered you can reject 12MHz because your data is not perfectly lowpass filtered. Whatever analog filter you have on your input has a transition band. Wherever the rolloff of that filter crosses the limit of your tolerance for aliasing is the true bandwidth of your input (it's a little more tricky than that because the first bit of noise above Nyquist folds back onto the extra bit of sampling bandwidth you don't care about anyway). -- Ben Jackson AD7GD <ben@ben.com> http://www.ben.com/
Reply by Tim Wescott May 5, 20092009-05-05
On Tue, 05 May 2009 00:29:59 -0700, aitezaz.abd wrote:

> hi all. > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means the > Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that it is > not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate because of the sinx/x > roll of charactersistics of ADC. Please guide should i oversample it a > little such as 16 or 20 MHz. I am working on a communication system so > the system is performance limited. > > Thanks
Nyquist didn't say that: http://www.wescottdesign.com/articles/Sampling/sampling.html. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by Greg Heath May 5, 20092009-05-05
On May 5, 5:43&#2013266080;am, "Alun" <no.spam.thank....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> <aitezaz....@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:e3e136be-68be-4e46-bc3e-5a2713463ebd@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means > > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. > > If BW is 2 then Nyquist Rate is 4. > > This is because you are interested only in reproducing the shape > of your original signal and have no interest in the shape of > the 5MHz carrier wave.
If sampled after demodulation. Otherwise the result will be aliased. Hope this helps. Greg
Reply by Duplic May 5, 20092009-05-05
"Vladimir Vassilevsky" <antispam_bogus@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:0LULl.17832$D32.1661@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
> > <aitezaz.abd@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:e3e136be-68be-4e46-bc3e-5a2713463ebd@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >> hi all. >> i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means >> the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that >> it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate because of the >> sinx/x roll of charactersistics of ADC. Please guide should i >> oversample it a little such as 16 or 20 MHz. I am working on a >> communication system so the system is performance limited. >> >> Thanks
Is that you're latest 'clever' word Vlad? Are you four?
Reply by rickman May 5, 20092009-05-05
On May 5, 6:01 am, aitezaz....@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 5, 2:43 pm, "Alun" <no.spam.thank....@invalid.invalid> wrote: > > > <aitezaz....@gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:e3e136be-68be-4e46-bc3e-5a2713463ebd@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means > > > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. > > > If BW is 2 then Nyquist Rate is 4. > > > This is because you are interested only in reproducing the shape > > of your original signal and have no interest in the shape of > > the 5MHz carrier wave. > > yes you are right. but i want to understand this thing in general for > nyquist sampling instead of bandpass sampling. i.e. consider 8 MHz of > bandwidth with 5 MHz carrier. Now i cannot use 16 MHz as sampling rate > because it will cause overlapping of the spectra. Please guide me for > the case when i am nyquist sampling the signal i.e. (5+4)x2=18 MHz. I > put my question again as follows. > > Is it OK to sample at nyquist rate (2xmaximum frequency present in > signal) considering the sinx/x roll of characteristics of ADC or > should i oversample it a little bit. Or put it another way... is it > OK to have your spectrum tightly packed between -Fs/2 to Fs/2 ? (as in > this case the frequencies near the Fs/2 and -Fs/2 would suffer a loss > because of sinx/x characteristics.) > > Thanks for your time
Talking about the spectum being between -Fs/2 to Fs/2 implies that you are using quadrature sampling. With real sampling you need to limit the signal bandwidth to 0 to Fs/2 to prevent aliasing. When you talk about "sinx/x roll of charactersistics of ADC" I'm not sure this is exactly the right way to put it. The problem with sample rate is aliasing and filtering. If your signal is bandwidth limited to 0 to Fs/2, then the sampled version will be accurate with no aliasing. In the real world, filters are not perfect and a design needs to allow for a transition band in the filter. So it works better to use perhaps 80% ro 90% of the available bandwidth for your signal. In your example with a 5 MHz carrier and a 2 MHz wide signal, you would do well to sample around 15 MHz or higher. If you sample at 4 MHz, the real signal would alias down to 0 to 2 MHz, however this does not allow for the transition band of a real design. Another choice might be to sample at 7 MHz bringing the signal to 1 to 3 MHz region. But this presents an inverted spectrum which may or may not be an issue for your application. Sampling above 12 MHz will give you a spectrum that is entirely within the Nyquist bandwidth is not inverted. If the signal bandwidth were not so wide, say 1 MHz, you could sub- sample at a rate just below the low end of the lowest frequency, say 4 MHz, to shift the band near 0 Hz and retain a non-inverted spectrum. In this example the resulting spectrum would be between 0.5 and 1.5 MHz with a 2 MHz Nyquist rate. This would allow a reasonably wide transition band on your anti-alias filter. Rick
Reply by Vladimir Vassilevsky May 5, 20092009-05-05
<aitezaz.abd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3e136be-68be-4e46-bc3e-5a2713463ebd@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> hi all. > i have a signal of bandwidth 2 MHz on a carrier of 5 MHz. That means > the Nyquist sampling rate is (5+2/2)*2 = 12 MHz. But I have heard that > it is not a good idea to sample on or near nyquist rate because of the > sinx/x roll of charactersistics of ADC. Please guide should i > oversample it a little such as 16 or 20 MHz. I am working on a > communication system so the system is performance limited. > > Thanks