Darrell <darrelljs@gmail.com> wrote in news:276159ca-f1ec-42f4-b155-
4a22f646294e@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com:

>> > On 12 June, 01:35, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> with halfband symmetry, those 100 taps are interlaced with zero-valued
>> taps, so the "reach" of the impulse response is about 200 taps. &#4294967295;when
>> you give up on symmetry, you lose those zero taps and then you have to
>> pay for computing them. &#4294967295;also, while this makes little difference with
>> a DSP, in an FPGA you can take advantage of symmetry in the IR and
>> have half (again) as many multiplications even though you still have
>> the same number of memory accesses and additions.
> 
> Another trick with halfband filters that may or may not help...design
> a
> sub-spec half-band filter and modulate it by one sinusoid with a phase
> of -pi/4
> and another with a phase of pi/4.  This will give you two "Hilbert"
> transformers
> that are -45 degrees and + 45 degrees (i.e. still 90 degrees out of
> phase).
> The advantage of doing it this way is that the amplitude response of
> the two
> filters are identical.  For some applications (e.g. magnitude
> estimation) the
> problem isn't the ripple, it is the mismatched amplitude response
> between the
> I and Q path...
> 
> Darrell
> 
> P.S. There is a bit more to it since you need to ensure the center tap
> is
> sqrt(2)/2, and if this is something you are interested in I'll post
> the details.
> 

Clay Turner's excellent article discusses this in the current IEEE Signal 
Processing Magazine which I received on Wednesday.

Al Clark
Danville Signal

> > On 12 June, 01:35, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com>
> > wrote:
>
> with halfband symmetry, those 100 taps are interlaced with zero-valued
> taps, so the "reach" of the impulse response is about 200 taps. &#4294967295;when
> you give up on symmetry, you lose those zero taps and then you have to
> pay for computing them. &#4294967295;also, while this makes little difference with
> a DSP, in an FPGA you can take advantage of symmetry in the IR and
> have half (again) as many multiplications even though you still have
> the same number of memory accesses and additions.

Another trick with halfband filters that may or may not help...design
a
sub-spec half-band filter and modulate it by one sinusoid with a phase
of -pi/4
and another with a phase of pi/4.  This will give you two "Hilbert"
transformers
that are -45 degrees and + 45 degrees (i.e. still 90 degrees out of
phase).
The advantage of doing it this way is that the amplitude response of
the two
filters are identical.  For some applications (e.g. magnitude
estimation) the
problem isn't the ripple, it is the mismatched amplitude response
between the
I and Q path...

Darrell

P.S. There is a bit more to it since you need to ensure the center tap
is
sqrt(2)/2, and if this is something you are interested in I'll post
the details.

In article <4c3b3c23-b833-461c-877e-
4de454c9933d@o18g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, stenasc@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real
>signal to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50
>hz. I have a couple of questions which hopefully the experts can give
>me some advice. First of all. to get the required frequency response
>and to keep the passband ripple as low as possible, I need a large
>number of taps and this uses a lot of resources on an FPGA. Is there a
>quick and dirty method to implement a HT which will reduce the number
>of resources required? Would running the input signal through a simple
>delay line to get the 90 degree phase shift work? I've thought about
>it and I don't think it would because I don't think it would filter
>out the negative frequencies but I would like confirmation of this or
>not.
>
>
>Tapping output from the centre tap...Can this output be just the input
>delayed or does it have to be the result of the input convolved with
>half the filter coefficients.

Fast convolution comes to mind. The big challenge with a filter like 
this is computing the tap weights (if you want minimax result) because 
the MPR algorithm tends to break down when more than a few thousand taps 
are computed.

I have done quick and dirty wideband HTs by doing FFTs on large blocks 
(~64000 samples), swapping the real and imaginary parts, negating the 
new imaginary part, and doing an IFFT. I threw away about 3000 samples 
at each end and crossfaded between blocks. When used for SSB modulation, 
results were surprisingly good (unwanted sideband suppression was 
somewhere better than -80 dB IIRC) even though the technique does not 
not meet the strict criteria for overlap and add.

On Jun 13, 6:08&#4294967295;pm, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12 June, 16:00, Clay <c...@claysturner.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 10:39&#4294967295;am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real
> > > signal to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50
> > > hz. I have a couple of questions which hopefully the experts can give
> > > me some advice. First of all. to get the required frequency response
> > > and to keep the passband ripple as low as possible, I need a large
> > > number of taps and this uses a lot of resources on an FPGA. Is there a
> > > quick and dirty method to implement a HT which will reduce the number
> > > of resources required? Would running the input signal through a simple
> > > delay line to get the 90 degree phase shift work? I've thought about
> > > it and I don't think it would because I don't think it would filter
> > > out the negative frequencies but I would like confirmation of this or
> > > not.
>
> > > Tapping output from the centre tap...Can this output be just the input
> > > delayed or does it have to be the result of the input convolved with
> > > half the filter coefficients.
>
> > > Many Thanks
> > > Bob Carter
>
> > Hello Bob,
>
> > You have one set of crazy specs! I assume you are trying to make an
> > analytic signal, so how about subdividing your original signal into
> > bands using quadrature mirror filters with appropriate decimation
> > after each bandsplit, and then forming each of these band outputs into
> > analytic signals. Then when appropriately combined (after applying
> > proper delays and interpolation) you can make your wideband analytic
> > signal. But this may take several FPGAs. I don't think there is an
> > easy answer to your problem without somehow relaxing your spec. Does
> > your signal processing really require such a bandwidth all at the same
> > time? Or does your process use a smaller bandwidth but just needs to
> > be frequency agile? If you can reduce the bandwidth, then your Hilbert
> > problem gets simpler. For efficiently making analytic signals I have
> > an article that describes a way to do it that will be availible on
> > July 1st in the Signal Processing Magazine.
>
> > FWIW,
> > Clay
>
> Hi Clay,
>
> Yeah...trying to make an analytic signal, which is turning out to be a
> pain in the analytic area. The quadrature mirror filters idea would
> take up a lot of logic on the chip, so I'd rather not go down that
> road. It also looks to be a quite complex task and I'll have the usual
> time pressures to contend with. I'm currently investigating if I can
> relax the bandwidth requirements and R.B.J. has thrown up some
> interesting possibilities as well. However, I'm certainly looking
> forward to having a read of your article....any chance of a
> preview ???
>
> Regards
> Bob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm afraid it would be poor form to offer up a detailed preview of the
article before the publisher gets it out. But it does allow for
cutting the number of taps in half and the method has nearly linear
phase.

Clay

On Jun 14, 11:22&#4294967295;am, "wazerf...@gmail.com" <wazerf...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Jun 11, 9:39&#4294967295;am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real
> > signal to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50
> > hz.
...
>
> Can you do quadrature re-sampling?

ooookay.  what exactly is it and how does that speak to solution to
the problem and not the desired consequence of the solution?

r b-j

On Jun 11, 9:39&#4294967295;am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real
> signal to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50
> hz. I have a couple of questions which hopefully the experts can give
> me some advice. First of all. to get the required frequency response
> and to keep the passband ripple as low as possible, I need a large
> number of taps and this uses a lot of resources on an FPGA. Is there a
> quick and dirty method to implement a HT which will reduce the number
> of resources required? Would running the input signal through a simple
> delay line to get the 90 degree phase shift work? I've thought about
> it and I don't think it would because I don't think it would filter
> out the negative frequencies but I would like confirmation of this or
> not.
>
> Tapping output from the centre tap...Can this output be just the input
> delayed or does it have to be the result of the input convolved with
> half the filter coefficients.
>
> Many Thanks
> Bob Carter

Can you do quadrature re-sampling?

On 12 June, 16:00, Clay <c...@claysturner.com> wrote:
> On Jun 11, 10:39&#4294967295;am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real
> > signal to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50
> > hz. I have a couple of questions which hopefully the experts can give
> > me some advice. First of all. to get the required frequency response
> > and to keep the passband ripple as low as possible, I need a large
> > number of taps and this uses a lot of resources on an FPGA. Is there a
> > quick and dirty method to implement a HT which will reduce the number
> > of resources required? Would running the input signal through a simple
> > delay line to get the 90 degree phase shift work? I've thought about
> > it and I don't think it would because I don't think it would filter
> > out the negative frequencies but I would like confirmation of this or
> > not.
>
> > Tapping output from the centre tap...Can this output be just the input
> > delayed or does it have to be the result of the input convolved with
> > half the filter coefficients.
>
> > Many Thanks
> > Bob Carter
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> You have one set of crazy specs! I assume you are trying to make an
> analytic signal, so how about subdividing your original signal into
> bands using quadrature mirror filters with appropriate decimation
> after each bandsplit, and then forming each of these band outputs into
> analytic signals. Then when appropriately combined (after applying
> proper delays and interpolation) you can make your wideband analytic
> signal. But this may take several FPGAs. I don't think there is an
> easy answer to your problem without somehow relaxing your spec. Does
> your signal processing really require such a bandwidth all at the same
> time? Or does your process use a smaller bandwidth but just needs to
> be frequency agile? If you can reduce the bandwidth, then your Hilbert
> problem gets simpler. For efficiently making analytic signals I have
> an article that describes a way to do it that will be availible on
> July 1st in the Signal Processing Magazine.
>
> FWIW,
> Clay

Hi Clay,

Yeah...trying to make an analytic signal, which is turning out to be a
pain in the analytic area. The quadrature mirror filters idea would
take up a lot of logic on the chip, so I'd rather not go down that
road. It also looks to be a quite complex task and I'll have the usual
time pressures to contend with. I'm currently investigating if I can
relax the bandwidth requirements and R.B.J. has thrown up some
interesting possibilities as well. However, I'm certainly looking
forward to having a read of your article....any chance of a
preview ???

Regards
Bob

On 12 June, 23:42, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com>
wrote:
> On Jun 12, 5:22 am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12 June, 01:35, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 11, 11:30 am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real signal
> > > > > > to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50 hz.
>
> > > ...
>
> > > > I'm afraid the bandwidth is wideband... 50 Hz all the way to 700000 Hz.
>
> > > Whoa, Nellie!!!
>
> ...
>
> > > so how long is your FIR? &#4294967295;you *could* use halfband symmetry, but the
> > > 50 Hz spec on your bottom will translate to a Nyquist-50Hz spec on the
> > > top, which is probably better than you need.
>
> > > tough spec.
> ...
>
> > There is no way on earth I can meet that spec using a conventional HT.
>
> no shit. &#4294967295;not without a lot of taps.
>
> > If I change the passband to 10KHz to 990 KHz and have it symmetrical,
> > then I begin to see a decent result using approx 100 taps...which I
> > could implement on an FPGA.
>
> with halfband symmetry, those 100 taps are interlaced with zero-valued
> taps, so the "reach" of the impulse response is about 200 taps. &#4294967295;when
> you give up on symmetry, you lose those zero taps and then you have to
> pay for computing them. &#4294967295;also, while this makes little difference with
> a DSP, in an FPGA you can take advantage of symmetry in the IR and
> have half (again) as many multiplications even though you still have
> the same number of memory accesses and additions.
>

A halfband HT...hmm....didn't know such a beast existed...just
interlace the coeffs with zeros you say...what happens with the
sampling freq...do I double it? I've implemented half bands before to
good effect and also taken advantage of IR symmetry to reduce logic
count on FPGAs so that's an interesting possibility.

> > However, I need to get the lower edge of
> > the passband down closer to 50 Hz. Is there any other way of achieving
> > the same effect as a HT &#4294967295;for baseband signals?
>
> without bumping your signal spectrum up by (10000-50) Hz (and how're
> you gonna do that without an HT?) and bumping it back down, i dunno.
> maybe the old fashioned way we ham operators used to do it in single-
> sideband (SSB) with "mixers" and crystal-lattice filters. &#4294967295;you'll need
> some pretty sharp IIR filters. &#4294967295;it might not work so well. &#4294967295;i dunno.

Was thinking of moving up the spectrum and then mixing back down
again, but that brings its own problems as you've alluded to above.
May have to go down this route yet.
>
> it's a damn tough spec.

Let's just say...It a challenging one !!

>
> r b-j

On Jun 12, 5:22 am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12 June, 01:35, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 11, 11:30 am, Bob <sten...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm implementing a HT with sampling freq 2 Mhz to convert a real signal
> > > > > to complex.. The required passband goes down all the way to 50 hz.
>
> > ...
>
> > > I'm afraid the bandwidth is wideband... 50 Hz all the way to 700000 Hz.
>
> > Whoa, Nellie!!!
>
...
>
> > so how long is your FIR?  you *could* use halfband symmetry, but the
> > 50 Hz spec on your bottom will translate to a Nyquist-50Hz spec on the
> > top, which is probably better than you need.
>
> > tough spec.
...
>
> There is no way on earth I can meet that spec using a conventional HT.

no shit.  not without a lot of taps.

> If I change the passband to 10KHz to 990 KHz and have it symmetrical,
> then I begin to see a decent result using approx 100 taps...which I
> could implement on an FPGA.

with halfband symmetry, those 100 taps are interlaced with zero-valued
taps, so the "reach" of the impulse response is about 200 taps.  when
you give up on symmetry, you lose those zero taps and then you have to
pay for computing them.  also, while this makes little difference with
a DSP, in an FPGA you can take advantage of symmetry in the IR and
have half (again) as many multiplications even though you still have
the same number of memory accesses and additions.

> However, I need to get the lower edge of
> the passband down closer to 50 Hz. Is there any other way of achieving
> the same effect as a HT  for baseband signals?

without bumping your signal spectrum up by (10000-50) Hz (and how're
you gonna do that without an HT?) and bumping it back down, i dunno.
maybe the old fashioned way we ham operators used to do it in single-
sideband (SSB) with "mixers" and crystal-lattice filters.  you'll need
some pretty sharp IIR filters.  it might not work so well.  i dunno.

it's a damn tough spec.

r b-j