Reply by Capt. Convolution May 24, 20102010-05-24
On Fri, 21 May 2010 08:02:17 -0700 (PDT), dbd <dbd@ieee.org> wrote:


> >If you had tried Google in a more than cursory way you might have >noticed that there are even a number of different definitions of >"integrated sidelobe level". The choice between them depends on the >nature of the signal you are analysing, the type of analysis you are >trying to perform and what the purpose of your use of "integrated >sidelobe level" will be. Until you can communicate that, no one can >give more than a general answer. I suggest the effort at modeling to >force you to face and make some of those choices. That could give you >more specific questions. > >Dale B. Dalrymple
Hi, Yes I understand. Thank you again, Capt. Convolution
Reply by dbd May 21, 20102010-05-21
On May 21, 3:34&#2013266080;am, Capt. Convolution <C.Convolut...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:23:58 -0700 (PDT), dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote: > > ,,, > >Have you tried > >intrgrated sidelobe level > >on Google? > > Only in the most cursory way. > > ... &#2013266080;I can't understand what > kind of thinking would cause three authors agree to say "a filter is a > signal". &#2013266080;What a strange, odd, thing to say!
Many people will label the output of a process by the name of the process performed.
> > >Try equation 2 in: > >HIGH RESOLUTION WEATHER RADAR THROUGH PULSE COMPRESSION > >ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/134127.pdf > > The above PDF file is almost identical to the paper provided by Mr. > Zhi.Shen (http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf). > The above "134127.pdf" equation 2 is identical, in every way, to the > equation 2 in the "123417.pdf" file. (The two papers were written by > the same people and their textual descriptions of their two equation > 2's are word-for-word identical.
You may find that preprints posted for review are more readily available on the net than the printed versions under copyright of the publisher.
> ...
> ... > The "00519643.pdf" paper defines "integrated sidelobe level" in a > manner very similar to the "123417.pdf" paper. &#2013266080;However, it's not > clear to me if those similar definitions are talking about the > spectrum of a signal or the frequency response of a filter.
Why would that make a difference?
> &#2013266080;(None of > the papers say anything about the impulse response of a filter.)
Sidelobes don't occur in the impulse response of a system, but in the Fourier transform or discrete Fourier transform of the impulse response. Many kinds of systems have impulse responses, including filters. And filters are taught because they can usefully represent many systems. A radar transmitter could be considered as having a spectrum in response to the "transmit" impulse.
> ... > >If you get around to actually trying a calculation, let us know. Tell > >us what you have done, why and what, if any, questions remain. > > I confess that I have not yet done any software modeling of > "integrated sidelobe level" when the output of a filter is decimated. > I hope to do that in the next week. &#2013266080;If I learn something definitive, > something predictable and sensible, I will most assuredly post my > results for you and Mr. Zhi.Shen to see. &#2013266080;Thanks again. > > Capt. Convolution.
If you had tried Google in a more than cursory way you might have noticed that there are even a number of different definitions of "integrated sidelobe level". The choice between them depends on the nature of the signal you are analysing, the type of analysis you are trying to perform and what the purpose of your use of "integrated sidelobe level" will be. Until you can communicate that, no one can give more than a general answer. I suggest the effort at modeling to force you to face and make some of those choices. That could give you more specific questions. Dale B. Dalrymple
Reply by Capt. Convolution May 21, 20102010-05-21
On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:23:58 -0700 (PDT), dbd <dbd@ieee.org> wrote:

>On May 20, 3:24&#2013266080;pm, Capt. Convolution <C.Convolut...@aol.com> wrote: >>... >> >> That web site appears to be strickly some Asian language. &#2013266080;I tried >> examining the Amazon English version of the book but was unable to >> learn anything about "integrated side-lobe level". >> >> Capt. Convolution
Hello Mr. Dalrymple,
>Have you tried >intrgrated sidelobe level >on Google?
Only in the most cursory way.
>Try equation 1 in: >Phase Coded Waveforms for Radar >www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers.../05_0112.pdf
That URL didn't work for me. but the following did work http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_05/05_0112/05_0112.pdf Unlike the other papers, the above "05_0112.pdf" paper defines "integrated sidelobe level" in terms of the time-domain output waveform of a matched filter. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Maybe it does. However, in the paragraph above their equation 1, the authors say: "The matched filter is a noisy signal that produces relatively large time sidelobes". I can't understand what kind of thinking would cause three authors agree to say "a filter is a signal". What a strange, odd, thing to say!
>Try equation 2 in: >HIGH RESOLUTION WEATHER RADAR THROUGH PULSE COMPRESSION >ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/134127.pdf
The above PDF file is almost identical to the paper provided by Mr. Zhi.Shen (http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf). The above "134127.pdf" equation 2 is identical, in every way, to the equation 2 in the "123417.pdf" file. (The two papers were written by the same people and their textual descriptions of their two equation 2's are word-for-word identical.
>Try equation 3 in: >Simulation and Analysis of Pulse Compression for Weather Radars ... >www.radar.colostate.edu/publications/chandra/00519643.pdf
The "00519643.pdf" paper defines "integrated sidelobe level" in a manner very similar to the "123417.pdf" paper. However, it's not clear to me if those similar definitions are talking about the spectrum of a signal or the frequency response of a filter. (None of the papers say anything about the impulse response of a filter.) Apparently the authors of these papers assume their readers are well versed in radar signal processing and a very-careful definition of "integrated sidelobe level" is not necessary in their papers. In any case, thank you thank Mr. Dalrymple for helping me investigate this notion of "integrated sidelobe level" in my attempts to understand the dB values given in Fred Harris' book.
>If you get around to actually trying a calculation, let us know. Tell >us what you have done, why and what, if any, questions remain.
I confess that I have not yet done any software modeling of "integrated sidelobe level" when the output of a filter is decimated. I hope to do that in the next week. If I learn something definitive, something predictable and sensible, I will most assuredly post my results for you and Mr. Zhi.Shen to see. Thanks again. Capt. Convolution.
Reply by dbd May 20, 20102010-05-20
On May 20, 3:24&#2013266080;pm, Capt. Convolution <C.Convolut...@aol.com> wrote:
>... > > That web site appears to be strickly some Asian language. &#2013266080;I tried > examining the Amazon English version of the book but was unable to > learn anything about "integrated side-lobe level". > > Capt. Convolution
Have you tried intrgrated sidelobe level on Google? Try equation 1 in: Phase Coded Waveforms for Radar www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers.../05_0112.pdf Try equation 2 in: HIGH RESOLUTION WEATHER RADAR THROUGH PULSE COMPRESSION ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/134127.pdf Try equation 3 in: Simulation and Analysis of Pulse Compression for Weather Radars ... www.radar.colostate.edu/publications/chandra/00519643.pdf If you get around to actually trying a calculation, let us know. Tell us what you have done, why and what, if any, questions remain. Dale B. Dalrymple
Reply by Capt. Convolution May 20, 20102010-05-20
On Thu, 20 May 2010 10:54:15 +0800, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.shen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi,
Hello Mr. Shen.Zhi,
> I have found a paper to descript the "integrated side-lobe level" exactly. >http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf
The definition, on page 2, of "integrated side-lobe level" in that PDF file is written in such a vague way that i was not able to understand it. When the author kept referring to a "mainlobe" I could not tell if the author was referring to the spectrum of a filter output signal, or the frequency response of the filter.
>ISL's(integrated side-lobe level) definition is also appeared in some >others' book, such as > >Hamish Meikle's book: "Modern radar systems", page 316 >http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=mGSE_tmA_HQC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22integrated+sidelobe+level%22&source=bl&ots=sO1Ej2YtcI&sig=OKqTRf81j4ak5iL8X3ITCo4DqkE&hl=zh-CN&ei=GaD0S7DJB8qOkQXPytzACA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22integrated%20sidelobe%20level%22&f=false
That web site appears to be strickly some Asian language. I tried examining the Amazon English version of the book but was unable to learn anything about "integrated side-lobe level". Capt. Convolution
Reply by dbd May 20, 20102010-05-20
On May 19, 7:40&#2013266080;pm, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you ALL! Friends! > &#2013266080; I have known the meaning of "integrated side-lobe level" > But who can provide a simple example for the calculation process of > integrated side-lobe level? > &#2013266080; ...
What have you tried? Dale B. Dalrymple
Reply by Zhi.Shen May 19, 20102010-05-19
Hi,
  I have found a paper to descript the "integrated side-lobe level" exactly.
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf

ISL's(integrated side-lobe level) definition is also appeared in some 
others' book, such as

Hamish Meikle's book:  "Modern radar systems", page 316
http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=mGSE_tmA_HQC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22integrated+sidelobe+level%22&source=bl&ots=sO1Ej2YtcI&sig=OKqTRf81j4ak5iL8X3ITCo4DqkE&hl=zh-CN&ei=GaD0S7DJB8qOkQXPytzACA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22integrated%20sidelobe%20level%22&f=false 



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Reply by Zhi.Shen May 19, 20102010-05-19
Thank you ALL! Friends!
  I have known the meaning of "integrated side-lobe level"
But who can provide a simple example for the calculation process of 
integrated side-lobe level?
  If it's the process of Harris's -36.1dB,  the Better!


> > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
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Reply by dbd May 19, 20102010-05-19
On May 19, 1:09&#2013266080;pm, Capt. Convolution <C.Convolut...@aol.com> wrote:
> ... > > Hi Mr. Dalrymple, > &#2013266080; &#2013266080;Thank you for your post. &#2013266080;I would also like to understand the > origin of the -36.1 dB value. &#2013266080; > > A "dB" measurement is "X db = 10*log10(P1/P2)". &#2013266080;In this case, will > you please tell what are the values of P1 and P2, and how P1 and P2 > are computed (determined), in that -36.1 dB measurement? > > Thank you very much. > Capt. Convolution
P2, the reference for the dB expression, is the peak of the response in the passband. P1 is "the calculation of the integral of the filter response across all the sidelobes in the stopband." The "response" is the magnitude squared. Dale B. Dalrymple
Reply by Capt. Convolution May 19, 20102010-05-19
On Tue, 18 May 2010 08:29:59 -0700 (PDT), dbd <dbd@ieee.org> wrote:

>On May 18, 1:26&#2013266080;am, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.s...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, Friends! >> >> &#2013266080;Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book >> "Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ? >> >> &#2013266080;I think it's a good book for engineering, >> but some descriptions make me confused. >> >> On page 53, Chapter 3 >> "For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for >> 60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the >> side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB >> which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of >> input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression >> of -51 .2dB, equivalent." >> >> Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning? > >That's the name of the integral of the filter response across all the >sidelobes in the stopband. > >> And why it's "-36.1dB "? > >That's the calculation of the integral of the filter response across >all the sidelobes in the stopband. > >>... > >Dale B. Dalrymple
Hi Mr. Dalrymple, Thank you for your post. I would also like to understand the origin of the -36.1 dB value. A "dB" measurement is "X db = 10*log10(P1/P2)". In this case, will you please tell what are the values of P1 and P2, and how P1 and P2 are computed (determined), in that -36.1 dB measurement? Thank you very much. Capt. Convolution