Reply by Rune Allnor December 4, 20042004-12-04
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<31bo6aF38i9ctU1@individual.net>...
> Rune Allnor wrote: > > ... > > > There is a very similar Norwegian word, "talje", that means "tackle" > > as in "block and tackle". The meaning transfers to most situations > > where a rope is supported by a rolling wheel. > > "Block" is at least the pulley housing. "Tackle" may be just the rope, > or it may mean rope, pulley, and axle. "Tackle" is also a synonym for > "gear", meaning equipment. More to look up!
While you are at it, the word "trille" means "roll" while the word "trylle" means "perform 'magic' tricks", as you can see illusionists do on circus etc. The more 'real' form of magic, like whitchcraft, is known as either "trolleri", "magics of troll", or "trollskap", "workings of trolls". These are magic tricks with a sinister twist to them. "Trollskap" also applies to pranks and practical jokes with a not all benign emphasis. "Troll" as a prefix would also serve to denote an abnormly large or particularly maliscious/badly behaved variation of some object or creature. So I guess anyone who wants to untangle the etymolgical web with basis in the word "troll" would be busy for a couple of days. From this thread I find the following similar words from English and Norwegian: Talje [Norw] (n) - rolling wheel for ropes to run on Trallala [Norw] (?) - common 'lyrics' of song when humming Tralle [Norw] (v) - sing, hum Tralle [Norw] (n) - small wagon Trawl [Eng] (v) - fish by dragging a net Trille [Norw] (v) - roll Trille [Norw] (n) - small wagon Troll [Norw] (n) - mythological creature Troll [Eng] (v) - fish with lure Troll(?) [Eng] (v) - sing loudly in drunken state Troll(?) [Eng] (v) - ramble, talk/sing incoherently(?) Troll(?) [Eng] (v) - roll Trolle [Norw] (v) - perform black magic Trolleri [Norw] (n) - blak magic Trolley [Eng] (n) - small wagon Trollskap [Norw] (n) - prank, practical joke with a 'bad' twist Trylle [Norw] (v) - perform illusions or showtime 'magic' (ref Houdini, Copperfield) Tr&#2013265925;le [Norw] (v) - fish by dragging a net The English and Norwegian languages are both based in the norse common languages of some 1000 - 1200 years ago, so it would come as no surprise if some of these words share common roots and have evolved in different ways in the two languages. Rune
Reply by Jerry Avins December 3, 20042004-12-03
Rune Allnor wrote:

  ...

> There is a very similar Norwegian word, "talje", that means "tackle" > as in "block and tackle". The meaning transfers to most situations > where a rope is supported by a rolling wheel.
"Block" is at least the pulley housing. "Tackle" may be just the rope, or it may mean rope, pulley, and axle. "Tackle" is also a synonym for "gear", meaning equipment. More to look up! Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Reply by John Monro December 3, 20042004-12-03
Andrew Reilly wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:07:18 +1100, John Monro wrote: > > >>Talking about word usage, Trolling is a hot topic in some of the other >>threads. I always thought that Trolls were monsters that lived under >>bridges in Scandinavia and who gobbled up travelers. Trawling is the >>process of dragging a net through the sea to catch fish, although >>'Trolling' is also used. >>It seems to me that a person who engages in trawling or trolling should >>be a Trawler or a Troller, and not a Troll. >> >> > >I had always assumed that the reason for this was twofold: (a) the early >denizens of usenet were by-and-large computer geeks, or at least science >geeks who had a greater affinity with fantasy of the D&D variety than with >fishing, and (b) once the behaviour pattern is understood (by all) you can >get away with using the (incorrect) term as a direct slur: much more >satisfying in the heat of a flame fest. > >Of course, I'm just an engineer (who's been using Usenet since the days >that it was carried by uucp), not a linguist. I may very well not know >what I'm talking about. :-) > >Cheeers, > > >
Andrew, After reading the other postings in this thread I now know that trolling means drawing a bait through the water to atract a specific type of fish. This is an excellent description of the process that is carried out by Newsgroup trolls (and which livens up things from time to time) so 'Trolling' it is! As to WHY a person who trolls is called a Troller, I do like your explanation. It would have seemed natural to decide that a Troll was a creature who trolled, just as it was natural to make WATFIV the successor to WATFOR. The computer community loves puns and word-plays! Regards, John
Reply by Ian December 3, 20042004-12-03
"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:31921fF36m16mU1@individual.net...
> Jerry Avins wrote: > > ... > > > Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report. > > I found no obvious connection between trawl and troll, and no connection > to trail seems to exist. Trawl is related to tract (as in traction, > tractor) and derives directly from Latin "tragula"; sledge or dragnet. I > guess tragula is cognate to German tragen, to carry or wear. > > Troll has a long history through at least Middle English, giving rise to > trolley and trollop as well meaning fishing with lines from a moving > boat. The basic meaning is turn or revolve. Side meanings were roll, > wander, drag about, ramble, and surprisingly, to circulate drinks. From > that last, it also means the singing if successive parts of a drinking > song. Now that I've been reminded, I have heard "trolling" used to mean > loud drunken reveling/caroling. > > Respectfully submitted; youts etc., > > Jerry > -- > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. > &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
My recollection is that "trolling" is specifically when using a spinning lure, which would fit with "The basic meaning is turn or revolve" noted by Jerry above. Regards Ian
Reply by Rune Allnor December 3, 20042004-12-03
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<31921fF36m16mU1@individual.net>...
> Jerry Avins wrote: > > ... > > > Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report. > > I found no obvious connection between trawl and troll, and no connection > to trail seems to exist. Trawl is related to tract (as in traction, > tractor) and derives directly from Latin "tragula"; sledge or dragnet. I > guess tragula is cognate to German tragen, to carry or wear. > > Troll has a long history through at least Middle English, giving rise to > trolley and trollop as well meaning fishing with lines from a moving > boat. The basic meaning is turn or revolve.
The Norwegian word "tralle" means either "trolley"/"small wagon" (noun) or "hum"/"sing quietly to oneself" (verb). I don't know if there is any etymological connections between the different forms.
> Side meanings were roll,
There is a very similar Norwegian word, "talje", that means "tackle" as in "block and tackle". The meaning transfers to most situations where a rope is supported by a rolling wheel.
> wander, drag about, ramble, and surprisingly, to circulate drinks. From > that last, it also means the singing if successive parts of a drinking > song. Now that I've been reminded, I have heard "trolling" used to mean > loud drunken reveling/caroling.
Another very similar "word" is "trallala" as one sings when one doesn't know or remember the words of a song. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the origins of the verb "&#2013265925; tralle" (hum/sing quitely) above.
> Respectfully submitted; youts etc., > > Jerry
Rune
Reply by Paul Burke December 3, 20042004-12-03
Jerry Avins wrote:

> it also means the singing if successive parts of a drinking > song. Now that I've been reminded, I have heard "trolling" used to mean > loud drunken reveling/caroling. >
Probably from "troll, loll, loll" sort of thing when they are too drunk to remember the words, or are traditional English folk singers who always forget the words drunk or sober.
> youts etc.,
That's very Derbyshire, especially the hardening of the th in 'youth'. You get octogenarians calling each other 'youth' here- the land of enternal youth? Paul Burke
Reply by Guy Macon December 2, 20042004-12-02
John Monro wrote:

>Talking about word usage, Trolling is a hot topic in some of the other >threads. I always thought that Trolls were monsters that lived under >bridges in Scandinavia and who gobbled up travelers. Trawling is the >process of dragging a net through the sea to catch fish, although >'Trolling' is also used.
I believe that "trolling" is dragging a lure or baited hook through the water to catch fish. A net catches wahtever is there. A hook only catches those who take the bait.
Reply by Rich Grise December 2, 20042004-12-02
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:34:33 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:

> Jerry Avins wrote: > > ... > >> Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report. > > I found no obvious connection between trawl and troll, and no connection > to trail seems to exist. Trawl is related to tract (as in traction, > tractor) and derives directly from Latin "tragula"; sledge or dragnet. I > guess tragula is cognate to German tragen, to carry or wear. > > Troll has a long history through at least Middle English, giving rise to > trolley and trollop as well meaning fishing with lines from a moving boat. > The basic meaning is turn or revolve. Side meanings were roll, wander, > drag about, ramble, and surprisingly, to circulate drinks. From that last, > it also means the singing if successive parts of a drinking song. Now that > I've been reminded, I have heard "trolling" used to mean loud drunken > reveling/caroling. > > Respectfully submitted; youts etc., >
How timely! http://www.always-safe.com/deck.html "... Troll the ancient Yuletide carol, falalalala, lala la la! ..." Happy Solstice! Rich
Reply by Guy Macon December 2, 20042004-12-02
Jerry Avins wrote:
> >BFoelsch wrote:
>> "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message > >>>That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) >> >> Piques. I'm prescriptive. > >Good for you. I was being sarcastic (and rueful). I assumed >that the "peek" would signal that I was poking fun.
Wordplay is the peak of humor.
Reply by Rich Grise December 2, 20042004-12-02
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:55:29 -0500, BFoelsch wrote:

> > "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message > news:317hfaF3774rvU1@individual.net... >> Geoff wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> The linguistics scene has "descriptive grammarians" (currently in the >>> ascendant) versus "prescriptive grammarians" (started declining maybe >>> 50 years ago). That's why I regularly find books, and even learned >>> papers, which confuse "throes" with "throws", "pour" with "pore", and >>> many more, since schools ceased to bother students with (horror!) >>> rules, substantive examinations etc. >> >> That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) > > > Piques. I'm prescriptive. > > Years ago there was a weekly puzzle in our newspaper which used exactly > that principal, they would give clues (no, not clews) that required a true
principle.
> prescriptive knowledge to answer. For example, they would give a clue > along the lines of "to overwhelm with fauna" and the crossword would be > filled in except for one letter. In this case the crossword would contain > INFE?T. It would be up to you to choose between INFECT and INFEST. > > There was a $500 dollar prize for the correct answer to the crossword, > which probably neede you to fill in only about 12 letters as explained > above. I won twice over a period of 12 years. > > I don't think they run that puzzle anymore.
Prizeword Pete - at least that's what they called the equivalent puzzle in The Minneapolis Star last millennium. :-) My mom and I did it every week, eagerly anticipating next week's paper as if it were powerball or something. ISTR that the prize money would roll over, and they'd increase it by about a hundred each week, until somebody won, when they'd start over at a hundred (or whatever - I was a kid, and it was the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - it might as well have been a million!) Cheers! Rich