Reply by Jerry Avins June 23, 20082008-06-23
John Monro wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote: >> John Monro wrote: >>> Jerry Avins wrote: >>>> stanp wrote: >>>>> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> (snip) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>>>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>>>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>>>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>>>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>>>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>>>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>>>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>>>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>>>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>>>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>>>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>>>>> and their women. >>>>>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>>>>> [-Rick-] >>>>>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>>>>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. >>>>>> You may >>>>>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time >>>>>> ago, >>>>>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these >>>>>> fifty >>>>>> years. >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>>>> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>>>> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>>>> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>>>> should have the right to murder Russians. >>>> >>>> Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. >>>> The neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be >>>> treated like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It >>>> didn't work out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid >>>> camps for generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In >>>> Jordan, Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are >>>> for the most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the >>>> Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman >>>> whose family came originally from a West Bank town that the treaty >>>> put under Israeli control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to >>>> know that he could never go home again. He replied that his father >>>> might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, >>>> Lebanon, and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated in camps. >>>> Blind hatred was promoted and festered. >>>> >>>> The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the >>>> conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn >>>> to annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and >>>> Arab schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". >>>> >>>> Jerry >>> >>> Jerry, >>> Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." >>> The facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no >>> accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be >>> allowed to return to their homes when they are able. >>> >>> I quote from a Wikopedia article: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus >>> but more authorative sources are not hard to find: >>> >>> "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: >>> What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; >>> Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion >>> at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in >>> such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and >>> armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route >>> [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the >>> question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved >>> his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a >>> term with a harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most >>> difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not >>> leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and >>> warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 >>> miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of >>> Peace, p. 140-141)" >> >> Most, but not all. Those forced out from short-term strategic >> necessity should have been allowed to return promptly when the first >> round of hostilities ended. Who knows what would have happened had the >> refugees not been virtually imprisoned as propaganda hostages? For >> years, not even the Red Cross was allowed into the refugee camps; now >> it's a bit late. What claim should American Indians and Australian >> aborigines have to the lands they were forcibly removed from? >> >> Jerry > > It's not too late now. At the very least Israel could stop opposing the > creation of a Palestinian State, and it could pay the Palestinian > title-holders the current market price of the property that Israelis > confiscated back in '47 / '48.
I don't think that they oppose that. It's difficult to establish any sort of relationship or entertain any compromise with entities sworn to destroy you utterly. Until this week, Israel supplied Gaza with limited amounts of fuel and electric power while Gaza continued to bombard Israel with rockets. We live in a mad world.
> As for Australian aborigines, yes in a number of cases their claims to > the lands they were forcibly removed from have been recognised by the > Australian Government, and Native Title has been granted to large areas > of central Australia. Other compensation to be given is a topic of > lively debate here.
An some Indian lands have been restored here. Nobody, however, is thinking about returning any land where cities have been built. This conversation is out of place here. I didn't want your comment to go entirely unanswered, but I think that any future exchanges should be elsewhere. For me, that means email. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Reply by John Monro June 22, 20082008-06-22
Jerry Avins wrote:
> John Monro wrote: >> Jerry Avins wrote: >>> stanp wrote: >>>> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>>>> >>>>> (snip) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>>>> and their women. >>>>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>>>> [-Rick-] >>>>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>>>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You >>>>> may >>>>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >>>>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these >>>>> fifty >>>>> years. >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> >>>> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>>> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>>> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>>> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>>> should have the right to murder Russians. >>> >>> Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. >>> The neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be >>> treated like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It >>> didn't work out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid >>> camps for generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In >>> Jordan, Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are >>> for the most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the >>> Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman >>> whose family came originally from a West Bank town that the treaty >>> put under Israeli control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to >>> know that he could never go home again. He replied that his father >>> might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, Lebanon, >>> and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated in camps. Blind hatred >>> was promoted and festered. >>> >>> The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the >>> conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn to >>> annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and >>> Arab schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". >>> >>> Jerry >> >> Jerry, >> Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." The >> facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no >> accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be >> allowed to return to their homes when they are able. >> >> I quote from a Wikopedia article: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus >> but more authorative sources are not hard to find: >> >> "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: >> What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; >> Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion >> at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in >> such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and >> armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route >> [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the >> question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his >> hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a term >> with a harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most >> difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not >> leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and >> warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 >> miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of >> Peace, p. 140-141)" > > Most, but not all. Those forced out from short-term strategic necessity > should have been allowed to return promptly when the first round of > hostilities ended. Who knows what would have happened had the refugees > not been virtually imprisoned as propaganda hostages? For years, not > even the Red Cross was allowed into the refugee camps; now it's a bit > late. What claim should American Indians and Australian aborigines have > to the lands they were forcibly removed from? > > Jerry
It's not too late now. At the very least Israel could stop opposing the creation of a Palestinian State, and it could pay the Palestinian title-holders the current market price of the property that Israelis confiscated back in '47 / '48. As for Australian aborigines, yes in a number of cases their claims to the lands they were forcibly removed from have been recognised by the Australian Government, and Native Title has been granted to large areas of central Australia. Other compensation to be given is a topic of lively debate here. Regards, John
Reply by Jerry Avins June 22, 20082008-06-22
John Monro wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote: >> stanp wrote: >>> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >>> wrote: >>>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>>> >>>> (snip) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>>> and their women. >>>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>>> [-Rick-] >>>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You may >>>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >>>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these fifty >>>> years. >>>> >>>> John >>> >>> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>> should have the right to murder Russians. >> >> Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. The >> neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be treated >> like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It didn't work >> out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid camps for >> generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In Jordan, >> Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are for the >> most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the Israeli-Jordanian peace >> treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman whose family came >> originally from a West Bank town that the treaty put under Israeli >> control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to know that he could >> never go home again. He replied that his father might care, but as a >> Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt, the >> refugees remained concentrated in camps. Blind hatred was promoted and >> festered. >> >> The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the >> conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn to >> annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and Arab >> schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". >> >> Jerry > > Jerry, > Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." The > facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no > accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be allowed > to return to their homes when they are able. > > I quote from a Wikopedia article: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus > but more authorative sources are not hard to find: > > "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: > What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; Not > even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at > operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such > situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed > populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the > troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the question: What > is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a > gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a term with a > harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions > we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not leave willingly. There > was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to > make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they > met up with the legion. (Soldier of Peace, p. 140-141)"
Most, but not all. Those forced out from short-term strategic necessity should have been allowed to return promptly when the first round of hostilities ended. Who knows what would have happened had the refugees not been virtually imprisoned as propaganda hostages? For years, not even the Red Cross was allowed into the refugee camps; now it's a bit late. What claim should American Indians and Australian aborigines have to the lands they were forcibly removed from? Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Reply by John Monro June 22, 20082008-06-22
Jerry Avins wrote:
> stanp wrote: >> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >> wrote: >>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>> >>> (snip) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>> and their women. >>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>> [-Rick-] >>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You may >>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these fifty >>> years. >>> >>> John >> >> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >> should have the right to murder Russians. > > Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. The > neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be treated > like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It didn't work out > that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid camps for > generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In Jordan, > Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are for the most > part prosperous. I was in Amman when the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty > was signed. One Jordanian businessman whose family came originally from > a West Bank town that the treaty put under Israeli control was asked by > an interviewer how it felt to know that he could never go home again. He > replied that his father might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself > didn't. In Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated > in camps. Blind hatred was promoted and festered. > > The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the > conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn to > annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and Arab > schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". > > Jerry
Jerry, Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." The facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be allowed to return to their homes when they are able. I quote from a Wikopedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus but more authorative sources are not hard to find: "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of Peace, p. 140-141)" Regards, John
Reply by John Monro June 21, 20082008-06-21
stanp wrote:
> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> > wrote: >> Rick Lyons wrote: >> >> (snip) >> >> >> >> >> >>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>> and their women. >>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>> [-Rick-] >> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You may >> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >> and many have held on to their property title documents all these fifty >> years. >> >> John > > My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. > Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 > minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. > What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I > should have the right to murder Russians. >
Speaking purely about the example you raise, I expect that you will agree that the surviving members of your family and the descendants still have a moral right to regain posession of their farm. The Russians used force of arms to eject your family in the first place and clearly would use force of arms to prevent them from regaining the farm. In that case it is my view that your family and their supporters would have the moral right to use force of arms against the Russians, but I am not personally advising that they do so. Of course they (and you) by definition do not and should not have the right to murder anyone. The Anti-Terrorism laws in Australia make it unwise for me to draw any parallels or conclusions in relation to the Palestinian situation. Regards, John P.S. My apologies for a near-duplicate posting I made in an attempt to correct "fifty years" to "sixty years."
Reply by stanp June 20, 20082008-06-20
On Jun 20, 4:38 pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> stanp wrote: > >>>My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. > >>>Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 > >>>minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. > >>>What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I > >>>should have the right to murder Russians. > > >>1. Nothing really changed since the times of the Roman Empire. > > >>2. What you do to russians and what russians do to you depends only on > >>what you can do to russians and what they can do to you with unpunity. > >>This is a question of the opportunity only. > > >>3. The different cultures despise and scare of each other at the very > >>best. It is the natural human behavior. > > >>4. The real question is "we or they". It is not like "we are good > >>because ..." and "they are bad because ...", it is just simply "we or > >>they" regardless. > > >>5. Politics is about wrapping the abovementioned basic principles into > >>the bullshit of moral, ethics, religion, justice, logic reasoning, etc. > > >>VLV > > > 1) Things have changed since the Romans, > > This is only a thin layer of culture, which lasts no longer till people > get hungry. Those who never was in trouble just can't realize that. > > > I really don't want to see > > any harm done to any Russian or anyone else. A grave injustice was > > done to my family but in an odd sort of way, since my mother and her > > brothers and sister found new lives in the US and Canada, my cousins, > > sister, and myself live much better lives than we would have had > > living on a farm in the old country. Nobody really wants to be a > > farmer. We don't see ourselves as victims. > > Yes you do, and you are seeking vengeance. The very fact of posting 30 > lines of text about 70-year old events proves that.
Events are events, for me it's one generation ago. The best vengeance is to live well. I posted because of a post that rationalized terrorism. The unfortunate fact is that the world is full of displaced persons and they in general do not consider themselves justified to murder. They move on and rebuild their lives.
> > > 2) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion? > > Are you a leftie whinist?
No , doesn't even fit.
> > > 3) I like Pizza. > > It comes with Cosa Nostra.
My exposure to Pizza is more via Naples and it usually comes with beer. Red wine is good too. Sicilian pizza is OK.
> > > My favorite is with clams and white sauce which > > wasn't invented in Italy. > > I like shish kebob, however it doesn't mean that I favor the dushman way > of life.
In a way you do. Food is very basic.
> > > It was invented in New Haven Connecticut. > > New Haven was founded by English Puritans but for some reason, lots of > > Italians live there. > > So, you want to live in the italian ghetto of 1920-x. Right?
Lots of Italians live there now. I don't need to go back to 1920. New Haven is mostly a nice area. I would actually prefer to live in Hamden. The schools are better.
> > > I had a Jewish girlfriend when I was in college. > > I married a Scot's Irish who's family is from New Brunswick. > > Sure. Stealing enemy women and making them mothers of our warriors.
It was my sense of humor that worked. Do you have to field strip an AK-47 to impress women? Its been a long time but I can probably still field strip an M60 machine gun. I can't say it's a skill thats been of any social utility outside of the military.
> > > I've > > read a little bit of Russian history. Russia is a hybrid of many > > cultures and influences. Mixing is what is natural. > > Russian history is the bloody battlefield between the different > cultures, and so is the history of Europe and America. The stronger > exterminated the weaker and acquired their best achievements. This keeps > happening until recent times, although in more sophisticated forms.
The Mongol hords were the strongest. If what you say was strictly true, there would be Mongols, not Russians.
> > > 4) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion? > > NATO is so inefficient. How could it happen that the occupation of the > richest in oil country does not justify the costs?
NATO isn't in Iraq so I don't understand your point.
> > > 5) Any farmer will tell you the Bovine manure is actually very > > valuable. > > As a hereditary farmer, you should know that a herd of pigs is a very > friendly (democratic, so to speak) family and with no hierarchy at all, > but only until the number of buckets with food is bigger then the number > of swines.
My mom talked mostly about potatoes and horses. I don't think pigs were a family specialty. I don't understand your point. Are you Orwellian?
> > VLV
Reply by Jerry Avins June 20, 20082008-06-20
stanp wrote:
> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> > wrote: >> Rick Lyons wrote: >> >> (snip) >> >> >> >> >> >>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>> and their women. >>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>> [-Rick-] >> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You may >> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >> and many have held on to their property title documents all these fifty >> years. >> >> John > > My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. > Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 > minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. > What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I > should have the right to murder Russians.
Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. The neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be treated like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It didn't work out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid camps for generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In Jordan, Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are for the most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman whose family came originally from a West Bank town that the treaty put under Israeli control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to know that he could never go home again. He replied that his father might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated in camps. Blind hatred was promoted and festered. The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn to annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and Arab schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Reply by Vladimir Vassilevsky June 20, 20082008-06-20

stanp wrote:

>>>My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>>Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>>minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>>What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>>should have the right to murder Russians. >> >>1. Nothing really changed since the times of the Roman Empire. >> >>2. What you do to russians and what russians do to you depends only on >>what you can do to russians and what they can do to you with unpunity. >>This is a question of the opportunity only. >> >>3. The different cultures despise and scare of each other at the very >>best. It is the natural human behavior. >> >>4. The real question is "we or they". It is not like "we are good >>because ..." and "they are bad because ...", it is just simply "we or >>they" regardless. >> >>5. Politics is about wrapping the abovementioned basic principles into >>the bullshit of moral, ethics, religion, justice, logic reasoning, etc. >> >>VLV > > > 1) Things have changed since the Romans,
This is only a thin layer of culture, which lasts no longer till people get hungry. Those who never was in trouble just can't realize that.
> I really don't want to see > any harm done to any Russian or anyone else. A grave injustice was > done to my family but in an odd sort of way, since my mother and her > brothers and sister found new lives in the US and Canada, my cousins, > sister, and myself live much better lives than we would have had > living on a farm in the old country. Nobody really wants to be a > farmer. We don't see ourselves as victims.
Yes you do, and you are seeking vengeance. The very fact of posting 30 lines of text about 70-year old events proves that.
> 2) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion?
Are you a leftie whinist?
> 3) I like Pizza.
It comes with Cosa Nostra.
> My favorite is with clams and white sauce which > wasn't invented in Italy.
I like shish kebob, however it doesn't mean that I favor the dushman way of life.
> It was invented in New Haven Connecticut. > New Haven was founded by English Puritans but for some reason, lots of > Italians live there.
So, you want to live in the italian ghetto of 1920-x. Right?
> I had a Jewish girlfriend when I was in college. > I married a Scot's Irish who's family is from New Brunswick.
Sure. Stealing enemy women and making them mothers of our warriors.
> I've > read a little bit of Russian history. Russia is a hybrid of many > cultures and influences. Mixing is what is natural.
Russian history is the bloody battlefield between the different cultures, and so is the history of Europe and America. The stronger exterminated the weaker and acquired their best achievements. This keeps happening until recent times, although in more sophisticated forms.
> 4) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion?
NATO is so inefficient. How could it happen that the occupation of the richest in oil country does not justify the costs?
> 5) Any farmer will tell you the Bovine manure is actually very > valuable.
As a hereditary farmer, you should know that a herd of pigs is a very friendly (democratic, so to speak) family and with no hierarchy at all, but only until the number of buckets with food is bigger then the number of swines. VLV
Reply by stanp June 20, 20082008-06-20
On Jun 20, 1:48 pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> stanp wrote: > > My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. > > Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 > > minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. > > What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I > > should have the right to murder Russians. > > 1. Nothing really changed since the times of the Roman Empire. > > 2. What you do to russians and what russians do to you depends only on > what you can do to russians and what they can do to you with unpunity. > This is a question of the opportunity only. > > 3. The different cultures despise and scare of each other at the very > best. It is the natural human behavior. > > 4. The real question is "we or they". It is not like "we are good > because ..." and "they are bad because ...", it is just simply "we or > they" regardless. > > 5. Politics is about wrapping the abovementioned basic principles into > the bullshit of moral, ethics, religion, justice, logic reasoning, etc. > > VLV
1) Things have changed since the Romans, I really don't want to see any harm done to any Russian or anyone else. A grave injustice was done to my family but in an odd sort of way, since my mother and her brothers and sister found new lives in the US and Canada, my cousins, sister, and myself live much better lives than we would have had living on a farm in the old country. Nobody really wants to be a farmer. We don't see ourselves as victims. 2) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion? 3) I like Pizza. My favorite is with clams and white sauce which wasn't invented in Italy. It was invented in New Haven Connecticut. New Haven was founded by English Puritans but for some reason, lots of Italians live there. I had a Jewish girlfriend when I was in college. I married a Scot's Irish who's family is from New Brunswick. I've read a little bit of Russian history. Russia is a hybrid of many cultures and influences. Mixing is what is natural. 4) Are you some sort of poster boy for NATO expansion? 5) Any farmer will tell you the Bovine manure is actually very valuable.
Reply by Vladimir Vassilevsky June 20, 20082008-06-20

stanp wrote:


> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. > Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 > minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. > What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I > should have the right to murder Russians.
1. Nothing really changed since the times of the Roman Empire. 2. What you do to russians and what russians do to you depends only on what you can do to russians and what they can do to you with unpunity. This is a question of the opportunity only. 3. The different cultures despise and scare of each other at the very best. It is the natural human behavior. 4. The real question is "we or they". It is not like "we are good because ..." and "they are bad because ...", it is just simply "we or they" regardless. 5. Politics is about wrapping the abovementioned basic principles into the bullshit of moral, ethics, religion, justice, logic reasoning, etc. VLV