Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:> Randy Yates wrote: >> "joncox" <joncox@mit.edu> writes: >> >>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are >>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed >>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically >>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >>> >>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is >>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, >>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I >>> know it... >> >> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that >> I sometimes violate my own advice in this regard. >> >> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes >> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of >> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the >> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them >> would be fruitless. >> >> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to >> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be >> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question. >> >> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that. > > The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's > teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned > to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and > two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help." > > The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!" > > I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the > teacher's job in this instance.Good point, Jerry. I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3) and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it. Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the administration that formed this policy. -- % Randy Yates % "Watching all the days go by... %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % Who are you and who am I?" %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Mission (A World Record)', %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % *A New World Record*, ELO http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
Group Culture Question
Started by ●February 17, 2009
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > >> Randy Yates wrote:...> I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math > department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial > math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a > problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3) > and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on > the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties > of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it. > > Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the > administration that formed this policy.I've encountered this several times. In my experience, it's not so much a matter of signed arithmetic /per se/, but difficulty with making substitutions. It shows up with the chain rule as well. Maybe that's a fruitful direction to approach it from with your wife. Math is one of the harder subjects to teach. Having once learned it, most people lose the ability to understand how an approach might not be obvious to everyone who encounters the need to use it. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
On 17 Feb, 15:24, "joncox" <jon...@mit.edu> wrote:> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are > some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed > in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically > the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. > > What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is > this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, > leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I > know it...It has to do with the attitude of the people who ask. I might have responded on a few occasions that they should talk to supervisors or bosses. On these occasions the questions have been concerned with fundamental decisions regarding projects of some size, and I got the impression - right or wrong - that the posters wanted quick answers to have some progress to show their supervisors. Picking other people's brains and passing the result on as your own work is not "professionalism" or "engineering", in my book. Nor is not learning the tools of your trade. As always, my views are controversial, but it is my firm belief that people who are assigned tasks in complicated projects should ask their supervisors for help and guidance; not strangers in a USENET group. Rune
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Greg Berchin <gberchin@comicast.net.invalid> wrote:>There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples' >homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are >quite common here.I am not a real adherent to this rule. For one thing, people are not all that sentient about spotting homework problems. Once a couple years ago, I asked a combinatorics problem on sci.math . I took combinatorics 25 years ago in college, and was rusty on it. My current specialties are DSP and chip design and stuff like that, and a somewhat abstract mathematics issue having to do with the law of the excluded middle was stumping me. What happened was, the posters on the group there declared that I was asking a homework problem and decided not to answer it. It was not so much that I did not get an answer; it was the kneejerk bombastic verbiage about how I was wrong to ask the question that seemed real silly to me. My philosophy is, if it's something I can answer and I have the time to do so, I will. Hopefully if I am stuck on a problem sometime, someone might provide an answer to me. I am a little less likely to reply if it seems like a homework assignment, or if the poster seems to have created an email account and pseudonym just to ask the question, but I will not rule out replying. Steve
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Randy Yates wrote: (snip)> I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math > department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial > math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a > problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3) > and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on > the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties > of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it.> Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the > administration that formed this policy.At some point it is not local, but global (or at least national). When I took the SAT many years ago calculators were not allowed, but they are now. I believe that the problems have adapted such that they don't depend so much on numerical ability. If the problems are written carefully, you can test for the ability to evaluate -1*(x-1) without the ability to use the calculator as a crutch. Even so, sign errors are easy to make even for experienced scientists. Practice helps a lot, and practicing without the calculator even more. There is now a "question of the day" service from ETS that will e-mail one SAT question to you every day. It is a good way to keep in practice even if you don't have to take one anytime soon. -- glen
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Greg Berchin wrote:> There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples' > homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are > quite common here.Some people will answer them. Others will generate a fake answer that may or may not eventually result in the right answer. Sometimes what looks like a homework problem is from someone who hasn't done that type of problem for many years and needs a quick reminder. It isn't always easy to tell.> For someone who has done their homework, or at least attempted it, and > who still needs guidance, you'll find that the folks on comp.dsp are > very accommodating.On the average, I believe so. There are, as usually, people on both sides of average. -- glen
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
joncox wrote:> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are > some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed > in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically > the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.There are also beginners with homework due in one hour who just want the answer, not how to get the answer. (Some even give a time requirement for the answer.)> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is > this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, > leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I > know it...Given the right question, it is usual to get more than is needed for the answer. -- glen
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Jerry Avins wrote:> Randy Yates wrote: > >> "joncox" <joncox@mit.edu> writes: >> >>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed >>> there are >>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get >>> pointed >>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, >>> typically >>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is >>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, >>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't >>> engineering as I >>> know it... >> >> >> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I >> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard. >> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes >> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of >> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the >> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them >> would be fruitless. >> >> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to >> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be >> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question. >> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that. > > > The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's > teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned > to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and > two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help." > > The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!" > > I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the > teacher's job in this instance. > > Jerryyeah but BUT *BUT* In THAT case the OP stated it was HOMEWORK indicated what he had done on his own (whether on not adequate is meaningless) asked for *DIRECTION* _NOT_ for "the answer"
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
> >joncox wrote: > >> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed thereare>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to getpointed>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However,typically>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching?Is>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don'tknow,>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineeringas I>> know it... >> > >1. Before asking a 2+2=4 question, check with google and wikipedia. Or >better get a basic book such as "Scientist and Engineer guide.." or >"Understanding DSP..."Some people might come here with no engineering background. Especially those depend on books to learn, but you can't ask a book if you don't understand something, so you ask here. I don't see a reason to complain about question from people with obvious knowledge gaps and I can't see a reason to complain about any reactions from the group. Usually I see helpful answers.>2. Self appointed netcops are not welcome regardless of their posture >and credentials. > >3. Students do their homework themselves.An attitude I respect. I personally don't care why somebody wants to know something. If it is to do his/her homework right, curiousity, or to do his job. I didn't have classes in engineering and just some very rudimentary lessons in DSP (hope my respected DSP teacher doesn't read this, it wasn't his fault, he teaches DSP to composers...) That's why I maybe do not share this strict aversion against homework questions. Bjoern
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
joncox wrote:> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are > some beginners asking simple questionsWRONG adjective >>>> not "simple", but "simplistic"> with only the desire to get pointed > in the right direction to start their learning process.Some - yes Many - *NO*> However, typically the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.I would argue with "typically". There is a specific infantile sarcastic individual in this group. HOWEVER, if poster demonstrates desire to learn, majority of group will give GUIDANCE. Now "guidance" (may) OR (may not) be an _explicit answer.> > What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is > this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, > leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I > know it... > >This group is *PRO*education
