Richard Owlett wrote:> Jerry Avins wrote: > >> Randy Yates wrote: >> >>> "joncox" <joncox@mit.edu> writes: >>> >>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed >>>> there are >>>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get >>>> pointed >>>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, >>>> typically >>>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be >>>> anti-learning/teaching? Is >>>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, >>>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't >>>> engineering as I >>>> know it... >>> >>> >>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I >>> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard. >>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes >>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of >>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the >>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them >>> would be fruitless. >>> >>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to >>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be >>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question. >>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that. >> >> >> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's >> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned >> to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and >> two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help." >> >> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!" >> >> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the >> teacher's job in this instance. >> >> Jerry > > yeah but BUT *BUT* > > In THAT case the OP > stated it was HOMEWORK > indicated what he had done on his own > (whether on not adequate is meaningless) > asked for *DIRECTION* _NOT_ for "the answer"Do you think my reply to him was inappropriate? Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Group Culture Question
Started by ●February 17, 2009
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:00:06 +0000, Steve Pope wrote:> Greg Berchin <gberchin@comicast.net.invalid> wrote: > >>There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples' >>homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are quite >>common here. > > I am not a real adherent to this rule. For one thing, people are not > all that sentient about spotting homework problems. > > Once a couple years ago, I asked a combinatorics problem on sci.math . > I took combinatorics 25 years ago in college, and was rusty on it. My > current specialties are DSP and chip design and stuff like that, and a > somewhat abstract mathematics issue having to do with the law of the > excluded middle was stumping me. What happened was, the posters on the > group there declared that I was asking a homework problem and decided > not to answer it. It was not so much that I did not get an answer; it > was the kneejerk bombastic verbiage about how I was wrong to ask the > question that seemed real silly to me. > > My philosophy is, if it's something I can answer and I have the time to > do so, I will. Hopefully if I am stuck on a problem sometime, someone > might provide an answer to me. > > I am a little less likely to reply if it seems like a homework > assignment, or if the poster seems to have created an email account and > pseudonym just to ask the question, but I will not rule out replying. > > SteveThere's a difference, though, between _helping_ someone with their homework, and _doing_ someone's homework. When someone really seems to want the group to cough up answers for tomorrow's assignment (or today's take-home test), then they deserve short shrift. If they're teaching themselves, or if the crew that's supposed to be helping them is falling down on the job -- then I try to help. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
On 2009-02-17, Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote:> > I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math > department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial > math classesI just saw a "math" lesson on a local educational cable access station using calculators. The narrator was leading the students in the use of graphing calculators to find the properties of certain basic operations like sqrt. The idea seemed to be to graph a bunch of variations (eg sqrt(x)*sqrt(x)) and sketch the results and use those to infer the properties of sqrt. They were treating the calculator like an artifact and doing "science experiments" to probe its mysteries. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD <ben@ben.com> http://www.ben.com/
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
On Feb 17, 5:07�pm, Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote:> On 2009-02-17, Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> wrote: > > > > > I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math > > department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial > > math classes > > I just saw a "math" lesson on a local educational cable access station > using calculators. �The narrator was leading the students in the use of > graphing calculators to find the properties of certain basic operations > like sqrt. �The idea seemed to be to graph a bunch of variations (eg > sqrt(x)*sqrt(x)) and sketch the results and use those to infer the > properties of sqrt. �They were treating the calculator like an artifact > and doing "science experiments" to probe its mysteries. > > -- > Ben Jackson AD7GD > <b...@ben.com>http://www.ben.com/this thread opens some interesting questions that I had started to ask a while back but the discussion never got very far... we all seem to agree that we should not GIVE out home work answers... we all seem to agree that it is OK to help students who want to learn something... I'm OK with both of those... it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be working professionally on a subject that I am also working on professionally. I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my company? Am I hurting myself? At some level we are in competition... The guys at alt.hvac seem to have a keen awareness of this. They are mercyless when a "homeowner' gets on and asks for help to fix their own furnace. Judging by the responses these guys see helping homeowners as taking food directly out of their own kid's mouths... While I do not condone rude responses, with the outflow of jobs from the US, they do seem to have a point that applies here. DISCUSS. Mark
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
On 17 Feb, 23:48, makol...@yahoo.com wrote:> it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be > working professionally on �a subject that I am also working on > professionally. �I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my > company? � Am I hurting myself? �At some level we are in > competition...From my POV, this is not a relevant problem at all. The tiny fraction that goes on on comp.dsp which I can have an informed opinion about, is generally on the beginning / intermediate educational level. Nowhere near anything professionally or commercially decisive. So lots of the efforts are about getting students on to the right track first of all, and warn about more or less obvious pitfalls later. As far as I am concerned, both efforts are necessary on the DSP community level in order to train / condition / manipulate decision-makers that have a clue about what DSP really is, and not just remain layfolk who have seen one sci-fi too many. In my field of work, which deals with data analysis, the competitive moves are strategic choises about what tasks to solve and what resources to allocate, rather than specific questions about pieces of technology or algorithms. To be blunt, data analysis by DSP is all about quantitative characterizations of data, while layfolk and amateurs think it is about qualitative classifications of data. Deceptively similar words, but getting it right makes all the difference in the world. So I don't really care if others obtain some competitive advantage from my input, if they make their decisions based on science fact rather than science fiction. But of course, I have very specific opinions - which I keep to myself - about how to go about the stuff I see in my day job. And I don't tell too many details about how to implement whatever tricks I might have come across. Or why they are worth the efforts. Rune
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Jerry Avins wrote:> Richard Owlett wrote: > >> Jerry Avins wrote: >> >>> Randy Yates wrote: >>> >>>> "joncox" <joncox@mit.edu> writes: >>>> >>>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed >>>>> there are >>>>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get >>>>> pointed >>>>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, >>>>> typically >>>>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >>>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be >>>>> anti-learning/teaching? Is >>>>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't >>>>> know, >>>>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't >>>>> engineering as I >>>>> know it... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that >>>> I sometimes violate my own advice in this regard. >>>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes >>>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of >>>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the >>>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them >>>> would be fruitless. >>>> >>>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to >>>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be >>>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question. >>>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's >>> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been >>> assigned to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using >>> Matlab and two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please >>> help." >>> >>> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!" >>> >>> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the >>> teacher's job in this instance. >>> >>> Jerry >> >> >> yeah but BUT *BUT* >> >> In THAT case the OP >> stated it was HOMEWORK >> indicated what he had done on his own >> (whether on not adequate is meaningless) >> asked for *DIRECTION* _NOT_ for "the answer" > > > Do you think my reply to him was inappropriate? > > JerryNO I was agreeing with your approach. For my response to make sense, you would have to come across several posts that I responded to in the specific order I saw them. Hummmm do i ramble
Reply by ●February 17, 20092009-02-17
Rune wrote:>On 17 Feb, 23:48, makol...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be >> working professionally on =A0a subject that I am also working on >> professionally. =A0I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my >> company? =A0 Am I hurting myself? =A0At some level we are in >> competition... > >From my POV, this is not a relevant problem at all. The tiny >fraction that goes on on comp.dsp which I can have an informed >opinion about, is generally on the beginning / intermediate >educational level. Nowhere near anything professionally or >commercially decisive.Maybe in your field, "commercially decisive" correlates with highly educated. I just posted a question about samplerate converters and the comparison at http://src.infinitewave.ca/. Abelton Live, Digital Performer, Logic and Cubase are likely to be the most commercially succesfull programs in the comparison If they stick out, then on the low-end! Do you really think commercial success of a product implies highly educated design?
Reply by ●February 18, 20092009-02-18
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:55:28 -0800 (PST), HardySpicer <gyansorova@gmail.com> wrote:>On Feb 18, 3:24�am, "joncox" <jon...@mit.edu> wrote: >> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are >> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed >> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically >> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful. >> >> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is >> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know, >> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I >> know it... > >Piss off!lol In addition to the numerous reasonable replies already given, I'll add that sometimes what may seem to be an inappropriate response to a new poster is really a conditioned response to a frequent poster who has repeatedly failed to demonstrate an ability to grasp basic concepts already explained. Sometimes it's just misunderstandings due to poor English language skills on the part of the poster, and sometimes (although I'd say pretty rarely) there may be a genuinely rude response that wasn't provoked. That's not to justify any rude or brusk responses, just offer some explanation. This is, after all, unmoderated intartubes, and as such comp.dsp is actually pretty civilized. For the most part if people are clear about what they're asking about and why this is a very good place to get on-topic information. If it appears that somebody is looking for a crutch or an easy way out to get someone else to do something that they're expected by either their professor or employer to do themselves, well, I'd hope that that sort of thing would be discouraged anywhere. Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms Abineau Communications http://www.ericjacobsen.org Blog: http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1/hf/Eric_Jacobsen.php
Reply by ●February 18, 20092009-02-18
On 18 Feb, 02:23, "banton" <bant...@web.de> wrote:> Rune wrote: > >On 17 Feb, 23:48, makol...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be > >> working professionally on =A0a subject that I am also working on > >> professionally. =A0I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my > >> company? =A0 Am I hurting myself? =A0At some level we are in > >> competition... > > >From my POV, this is not a relevant problem at all. The tiny > >fraction that goes on on comp.dsp which I can have an informed > >opinion about, is generally on the beginning / intermediate > >educational level. Nowhere near anything professionally or > >commercially decisive. > > Maybe in your field, "commercially decisive" correlates with > highly educated.Nope. 'Educated' (without the 'highly') will do nicely.> I just posted a question about samplerate converters and the comparison > athttp://src.infinitewave.ca/. > Abelton Live, Digital Performer, Logic and Cubase are likely to > be the most commercially succesfull programs in the comparison > If they stick out, then on the low-end! �My point exactly. Those who are succesfull are those who stick with the basics and don't attempt sci-fi bragging projects.> Do you really think commercial success of > a product implies highly educated design?Again, not 'highly' educated; just educated. My pointy is that there are too many amateurs and layfolk around, who do too many blunders that are covered by a DSP 101 course. There are too many amateurs around who have vague ideas about what DSPO might be, based on sci-fi moview. The problem occurs when such amateurs and layfolk get into positions of influence. Any company which allows that situation to endure is headed for disaster. Only after you get people in charge who know and understand the fundamentals of DSP will the company have any competitive advantages. Rune
Reply by ●February 18, 20092009-02-18
Maybe we can tag the discussions for the newbies with words like 'Beginners', 'Fundamantals' etc. On the other hand, there is sure some lack of initive from the beginners. The key to learning to swim is jump into shallow waters and trying to stay afloat. Sitting on the pool side and complaining is not going to make you a swimmer. Above all, we know that self(read 'F1' and 'Google') help is the best help. :)
