MUSIC and DOA Estimation

On Jun 15, 4:35 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 14, 6:23 am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
...
> > ...    If you don't
> > believe me, just look around for yourself and try and find
> > out how many real-world applications actually use these
> > sorts of methods.
>
> > There aren't too many - I'm not aware of a single one.
>
> > Rune
>
> Good to hear: that's what keeps me in business. ;>)
>
> M

Are there any such systems that have been tested in use by the actual
practitioners and remained in use after test? Or are you saying that
it is your business to protect practitioners from such systems?

Dale B. Dalrymple

On Jun 16, 4:44&#4294967295;pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> On 16 Jun, 22:22, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 16, 4:32&#4294967295;am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> > > > If you consider this from a math point of view, the basic fact is that
> > > > the notion of a "signal subspace" and a "noise subspace" are fiction.
> > > > There is a lot about this simple picture that from a mathematical
> > > > point of view is not well understood, and probably should be
> > > > investigated more.
>
> > > No, there isn't. The terms are well-defined, the maths simple.
> > > As long as one is comfortable with N-dimensional complex-valued
> > > vector spaces. But those are just a matter of familiarization,
> > > like i = sqrt(-1). A big hurdle for the newbie, second nature
> > > to the somewhat more experienced.
>
> > I doubt it. I'm a PhD in math and I know from my experience that there
> > is a fair amount of algebraic geometry involved in understanding array
> > manifolds. I've corrected the errors of many engineers who don't
> > understand what a complex Steifel manifolds (or even a manifold for
> > that matter), let alone its topology, so I know this from experience
> > to be the case.
>
> Still, you don't undrestand the trivial basics of vector spaces.
>
> > > If your clients hire me to review your system after a
> > > failure, I will waste no time in suggest you might be
> > > guilty of professional misconduct or fraud, if I find
> > > you used MUSIC and only assumed (as opposed to ensured)
> > > that the D < P.
>
> > You have to be very clear what the limitations of your method are. I
> > don't know your background, but I don't know any professionals who
> > don't spell these type of things out up front.
>
> You claim to be a professional. You actively disregard
> precise and clear warnings about trivial pathologies
> of the method you claim to build a business on.
>
> That's gross professional misconduct at the best of times,
> and pretty close to fraud.
>
> Rune

I've made no "claims", as my standard disclaimer clearly shows:

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OK Rune, it's been a whole lotta fun, but I've had enough cloak and
dagger bullshit for a while.

Best Regards,

M

On Jun 16, 5:49&#4294967295;pm, dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 4:35 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 14, 6:23 am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> ...
> > > ... &#4294967295; &#4294967295;If you don't
> > > believe me, just look around for yourself and try and find
> > > out how many real-world applications actually use these
> > > sorts of methods.
>
> > > There aren't too many - I'm not aware of a single one.
>
> > > Rune
>
> > Good to hear: that's what keeps me in business. ;>)
>
> > M
>
> Are there any such systems that have been tested in use by the actual
> practitioners and remained in use after test? Or are you saying that
> it is your business to protect practitioners from such systems?
>
> Dale B. Dalrymple

I don't do "systems" (which is why I am so amused by this thread). I
solve math problems that scientists and engineers can't solve.

Some of my work has been the basis for entire new fields, some of it
has remained a curiosity. But to tell the truth, I could care less
either way and I've enjoyed doing both equally well. I do what I do,
because I enjoy it, and I enjoy the challenge.

Regards,

Matt

Matt

On Jun 16, 5:27 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 5:49 pm, dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 15, 4:35 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 14, 6:23 am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> > ...
> > > > ...    If you don't
> > > > believe me, just look around for yourself and try and find
> > > > out how many real-world applications actually use these
> > > > sorts of methods.
>
> > > > There aren't too many - I'm not aware of a single one.
>
> > > > Rune
>
> > > Good to hear: that's what keeps me in business. ;>)
>
> > > M
>
> > Are there any such systems that have been tested in use by the actual
> > practitioners and remained in use after test? Or are you saying that
> > it is your business to protect practitioners from such systems?
>
> > Dale B. Dalrymple
>
> I don't do "systems" (which is why I am so amused by this thread). I
> solve math problems that scientists and engineers can't solve.
>
> Some of my work has been the basis for entire new fields, some of it
> has remained a curiosity. But to tell the truth, I could care less
> either way and I've enjoyed doing both equally well. I do what I do,
> because I enjoy it, and I enjoy the challenge.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt
>
> Matt

Ok, so you are a mathematician without applications experience.

Dale B. Dalrymple

On Jun 16, 9:33&#4294967295;pm, dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 5:27 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, so you are a mathematician without applications experience.
>
> Dale B. Dalrymple

I develop the theory you apply.   ;>)

On 17 Jun, 07:56, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 9:33&#4294967295;pm, dbd <d...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 16, 5:27 pm, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ok, so you are a mathematician without applications experience.
>
> > Dale B. Dalrymple
>
> I develop the theory you apply. &#4294967295; ;>)

You might think so, but the fact of the matter is that
you don't understand the theory that has been standard
in the DSP community for 35 years (It is common to trace
MUSIC-type methods to Pisarenko's 1973 paper.)

Not only have this theory been around for decades, it is
so simple that it can be explained to a reasonably bright
12-year-old without much difficulty, using only a piece
of paper and a couple of sticks.

Rune

On 17 Jun, 00:35, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 4:44&#4294967295;pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jun, 22:22, Junoexpress <MTBrenne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 16, 4:32&#4294967295;am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> > > > > If you consider this from a math point of view, the basic fact is that
> > > > > the notion of a "signal subspace" and a "noise subspace" are fiction.
> > > > > There is a lot about this simple picture that from a mathematical
> > > > > point of view is not well understood, and probably should be
> > > > > investigated more.
>
> > > > No, there isn't. The terms are well-defined, the maths simple.
> > > > As long as one is comfortable with N-dimensional complex-valued
> > > > vector spaces. But those are just a matter of familiarization,
> > > > like i = sqrt(-1). A big hurdle for the newbie, second nature
> > > > to the somewhat more experienced.
>
> > > I doubt it. I'm a PhD in math and I know from my experience that there
> > > is a fair amount of algebraic geometry involved in understanding array
> > > manifolds. I've corrected the errors of many engineers who don't
> > > understand what a complex Steifel manifolds (or even a manifold for
> > > that matter), let alone its topology, so I know this from experience
> > > to be the case.
>
> > Still, you don't undrestand the trivial basics of vector spaces.
>
> > > > If your clients hire me to review your system after a
> > > > failure, I will waste no time in suggest you might be
> > > > guilty of professional misconduct or fraud, if I find
> > > > you used MUSIC and only assumed (as opposed to ensured)
> > > > that the D < P.
>
> > > You have to be very clear what the limitations of your method are. I
> > > don't know your background, but I don't know any professionals who
> > > don't spell these type of things out up front.
>
> > You claim to be a professional. You actively disregard
> > precise and clear warnings about trivial pathologies
> > of the method you claim to build a business on.
>
> > That's gross professional misconduct at the best of times,
> > and pretty close to fraud.
>
> > Rune
>
> I've made no "claims", as my standard disclaimer clearly shows:
>
> STANDARD DISCLAIMER

You might want to be very careful about how you
apporach the business side of your activities.

Legal details probably differ from location to
location, but at least in my neck of the woods,
you approach 'fraud' in the legal sense when

1) Money change hands.
2) There is a certain discrepancy between what
   the user/buyer *thinks* he gets and what he
   *actually* gets.

There are also quite strict damage compensation
clauses, where the manufacturer (or a representative,
such as importer or retail outlet) of a product is
held legally responsible for damages that are caused
by the product.

Do note that this has nothing to do with unsafe or
uncorrect use of a product: The manufacurer or his
representative is held responsible for damages, no
matter what.

A disclaimer doesn't change any of this, as local
banks are in the process of finding out.

Over the past few years they sold 'financial products'
to customers, where the customers took up loans, at some
interest rate, and placed the money in the market, at
some other interst rate. Details in the press are a bit
vague as to exactly what was sold, but problems arose
when interest rates on the loans exceeded profits from
the market. Lots of people lost hundreds of thousands
of dollars on this, and sued the banks.

There are several legal processes at work over these
questions right now, so the end result remains to be
seen.

However, you might want to note that

- The banks issue standard disclaimers no matter what
  product they sell their customers
- The product in question was based on the *assumption*
  that the financial market would not collapse
- The courts hold product brokers responsible for
  informing the users 'sufficiently well' about the
  products, their benefits, and particularly the
  risks.

Again, the Norwegian legal system probably differs in
the details from systems in other coutries. The main
principles should be the same, throughout the western
world.

Rune