Tutorage for 'lost' boy - how?

Hi all.

A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
concerns about
his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
education. The boy
(I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older
than this
year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and
have now met
some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the
first time in his life.

The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and
have had to
spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the
guy has lost
some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get
on. According
to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have
never learned (well,
never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try
and talk to the
boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and
possibly
encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I
understand it, the
guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.

What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:

- Look up subject-specific terms and phrases
- Distill the purpose and emphasis of each section to at most 5
sentences or
  lines of text
- Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills
- 'Trick' the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from
simple
   geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.

Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff
in the
past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.

I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to
mention
"Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.

Rune

>Hi all.
>
>A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
>concerns about
>his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
>education. The boy
>(I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older
>than this
>year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and
>have now met
>some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the
>first time in his life.
>
>The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and
>have had to
>spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the
>guy has lost
>some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get
>on. According
>to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have
>never learned (well,
>never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try
>and talk to the
>boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and
>possibly
>encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I
>understand it, the
>guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.
>
>What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:
>
>- Look up subject-specific terms and phrases
>- Distill the purpose and emphasis of each section to at most 5
>sentences or
>  lines of text
>- Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills
>- 'Trick' the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from
>simple
>   geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.
>
>Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff
>in the
>past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.
>
>I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to
>mention
>"Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.
>
>Rune
>

HI Rune

May be I am not the right person but what I generally do is ask ppl to
read some stories of the people who have achieved by real struggle. I am
sure you can find many examples for him. I generally watch ''A Beautiful
Mind'' movie. Aks what is his real passion for exaplme, any sport. Lets say
football. So tell him something abt a footballer who has struggled a lot
and despite all that he achieved the success etc.....

It is just not education but to solve real life problems also you need
these sort of stuff. He just needs somebody who can explain him and tell
him all these. The ideal person to do this job is his father or mother. 

This is the right age to know and realise that nothing is easy and he has
to understand it now.

I dont know if I make any sense...

Chintan Shah

Rune Allnor wrote:

> A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain concerns about
> his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his education. The boy
> (I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older than this
> year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and have now met
> some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the first time in his life.

Then he is at least bright and there is hope. I know other pupils who worked like
hell in school and got first class rates and then failed miserably on the university
because they could not invest more time for learning.

> The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and have had to
> spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the guy has lost
> some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get on.

If the boy was always in the top notch of his class during school and now seems
to fall below the average: Tell him what an average means. 

This extension school may gather the brightest minds of all pupils in the
surround 150 km, and still 50% of these bright minds must fall below
the average. Those below the average have to accept the fact that they
are below average but still belong to the brightest minds, so there is no
reason to loose confidence in oneself. 

> According to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have
> never learned (well,
> never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try  and talk to the
> boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and possibly
> encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I understand it, the
> guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.

If this means that he need to pass a test within a few weeks then you must
find out what hinders him in passing it. I had one guy who had problems in
understanding why a mathematical formular was used to do some specific
calculation. As a very fast resort to pass the next test I persuaded him to 
accept it as a fact and just use the formular as is. It worked and he passed
the test with good results, and this was enough to give him enough self 
esteem for the remaining time.

> What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:
> 
> - Look up subject-specific terms and phrases
> - Distill the purpose and emphasis of each section to at most 5 sentences or
>   lines of text
> - Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills
> - 'Trick' the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from simple
>    geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.
> 
> Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff in the
> past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.
> 
> I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to mention
> "Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.

I'd try to find out which topics are of interest to the boy, and then find some
work/examples in these areas. As an example have a look into the first chapter
of the first book of the Feynman lectures on physics (AFAIR; the chapter which
deals with boiling liquids and what one can learn from watching it).

bye
Andreas
-- 
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Rune Allnor wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
> concerns about
> his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
> education. The boy
> (I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older
> than this
> year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and
> have now met
> some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the
> first time in his life.
> 
> The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and
> have had to
> spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the
> guy has lost
> some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get
> on. According
> to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have
> never learned (well,
> never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try
> and talk to the
> boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and
> possibly
> encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I
> understand it, the
> guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.
> 
> What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:
> 
> - Look up subject-specific terms and phrases
> - Distill the purpose and emphasis of each section to at most 5
> sentences or
>   lines of text
> - Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills
> - 'Trick' the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from
> simple
>    geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.
> 
> Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff
> in the
> past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.
> 
> I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to
> mention
> "Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.
> 
> Rune

Don't know if it would be more helpful to you or the young man. I 
would recommend getting a copy of _How to Read a Book_ by 
Mortimer J. Adler and Charles Van Doren.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_a_Book

I found it fascinating when it was recommended my freshman year 
at Cornell. But then again I all but lived in town library 
growing up ;)

Be sure he is reading. Almost anything will do. Just get him 
reading. What is he intrigued with? Find a book that is just at 
the top of his level. With a teen I worked with a few years ago 
it was C.S. Lewis' Narnia series. In high school, the school 
librarian challenged me to read more than science fiction for 
recreation and handed me a copy of _Two Years Before the Mast_
by Richard Henry Dana. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Years_Before_the_Mast

Get him to spend a whole day with you, away from the influences
of his parents.

It may be that they have kept him under-the-thumb, and his lack of
achievement is a latent rebellion to that.

Find out what motivates him (and _NOT_ what he thinks that he ought to be 
doing).

From your frequent arguments on here (  :-)  ) I suspect that you are not 
expert
in psychology, but you have to get him around to a frame of mind where he 
does things
for his own personal benefit  and not to satisfy what he perceives as 
someone else's requirements.


"Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message 
news:296ba200-13d7-4112-91c2-02faa2b0820a@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all.
>
> A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
> concerns about
> his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
> education.

On 5 Jan, 15:17, "invalid" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Get him to spend a whole day with you, away from the influences
> of his parents.
>
> It may be that they have kept him under-the-thumb, and his lack of
> achievement is a latent rebellion to that.

Not necessarily. It is just as likely that he is a victim of
an extensive number of social experiments instigated by the
Norwegian government.

> Find out what motivates him (and _NOT_ what he thinks that he ought to be
> doing).
>
> From your frequent arguments on here ( &#4294967295;:-) &#4294967295;) I suspect that you are not
> expert
> in psychology,

What??? Of course I am!! An expert of *my* psychology, at least..

Rune

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:02:44 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:

> Hi all.
> 
> A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
> concerns about
> his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
> education. The boy
> (I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older
> than this
> year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and have
> now met
> some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the
> first time in his life.
> 
> The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and
> have had to
> spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the guy
> has lost
> some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get on.
> According
> to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have never
> learned (well,
> never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try and
> talk to the
> boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and possibly
> encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I
> understand it, the
> guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.
> 
> What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:
> 
> - Look up subject-specific terms and phrases - Distill the purpose and
> emphasis of each section to at most 5 sentences or
>   lines of text
> - Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills - 'Trick'
> the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from simple
>    geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.
> 
> Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff
> in the
> past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.
> 
> I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to
> mention
> "Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.
> 
> Rune

There is a common pattern among kids that are 'gifted' with academic 
abilities well above average and who live in cultures that pace education 
by age.  It is to coast through the educational system up to college, 
then hit college and not know how to work.  This is one reason that we 
home-school our kids (the fact that their academic abilities are offset 
by their social abilities is another).

It sounds like this could be what your lost boy is experiencing.  I'm not 
sure exactly what to do for him -- I know what we've spent the last 16 
years doing to avoid this, which is to keep our kids' noses to the 
grindstone, even if it meant moving the grindstone well beyond where the 
school system would have it.

So if you do a web search for "gifted" and "college" and maybe 
"difficulty" you may find some material that will help, from people 
who've been there.  If this is his position, remind his parents that 
people in that position have been great successes at life, even if they 
never got a degree.  This is getting harder and harder in our society, as 
degrees mean more and more than actual ability (and my narrow US 
provincialism wants me to believe that it'll be worse where you are), but 
I suspect that there's still a niche for him, or at least a soft spot 
where he can carve out a niche.

I would suggest, if he seems baffled and frustrated rather than unwilling 
to work, that you sit him down and explain this effect.  In the US at 
least, society and the education system take "all men are born equal" to 
mean "if you act smarter than me you're a bastard"*.  My father (who 
cruised through high school, graduated early, then dropped out of college 
in his freshman year) was exceedingly bright in the areas that interested 
him, but had "you're no smarter than anyone else" ground so deeply into 
him that if someone else couldn't grasp a technical problem as lightning-
quick as he could it was obviously because they were lazy!

(goodness these are some poorly organized paragraphs)

So sit him down, tell him that he's not any closer to God than anyone 
else; he's just smarter than a lot of them in the ways that count in a 
classroom.  Then tell him that he was cruising without realizing it, and 
now he has to learn to work.  He'll have a tender nose, so don't put too 
much pressure on the back of his head when you first apply him to the 
grindstone.

(After growing up with my father, this is more or less what I tell my 
kids: "You're way smarter than other people in math and science, that 
carries you through for things like writing and English, and you'll never 
be able to pick up women in bars.  This doesn't make you better or worse 
than other people; you can't lord it over people who can't do what you 
can do, nor should you grovel to people who can do what you can't.  God 
holds you and the retarded paraplegic in her wheelchair in the same 
highest esteem; do your best to meet everyone in the same light."

Excepting some rough spots with my older kid vs. school psychologists**, 
this has worked pretty well.)

* Excelling at sports, and even rubbing other people's noses in it a 
little bit, is OK.  But don't you dare show more academic ability or 
you're a snob.

** School psychologists generally are of the "born equal means equal in 
all ways" camp.  So I came under heavy criticism whenever little mister 
"discretion? what's that?" had a conversation that included why he was 
bored in 1st grade, learning math skills that he figured out before he 
could talk intelligibly.  I'd explain about my dad, how he'd condense an 
entire 3rd-year college mechanical engineering course into one paragraph, 
then get pissed at a high-school drop out for not getting the gist of it 
(because, after all -- he wasn't smarter than anyone else, so if someone 
else can't do what he does it's willful laziness, right?).  They'd back 
off, but then they'd always want to wash their hands right after shaking 
hands with me.

My kids have turned out to be remarkably nice (at least, that's the 
remarks I get -- one of the first times it happened I wasn't sure if the 
woman was talking about my little monster, but then I realized they 
undergo a personality change as soon as Mom or Dad is out of sight).

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com

On 5 Jan, 17:31, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:02:44 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
> > Hi all.
>
> > A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
> > concerns about
> > his son, aged 19-20,
...

> So if you do a web search for "gifted" and "college" and maybe
> "difficulty" you may find some material that will help, from people
> who've been there.

I don't know the guy very well, so I have no first-hand impression.
There are some resources around that I have pointed the father to.

> (and my narrow US
> provincialism wants me to believe that it'll be worse where you are),

It is infinitely worse. If you have a good translator-bot
the material found at http://barn.ystenes.com might cause
you to consider yourself lucky - mo matter you might think
of the US system - that you are not here.

Rune

Leave him alone. Don't impose your problems to somebody else. Let the 
situation develop in the natural way.

VLV


Rune Allnor wrote:

> Hi all.
> 
> A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
> concerns about
> his son, aged 19-20, who seems to be at a critical point in his
> education. The boy
> (I'm getting old - I have friends younger than me who have kids older
> than this
> year's freshmen...) has always had an easy ride through school, and
> have now met
> some resistance (as in 'had to actually work for the results') for the
> first time in his life.
> 
> The problem is that he flunked some classes in 'extension school' and
> have had to
> spend a year taking these classes over. In the process, it seems the
> guy has lost
> some self-esteem / -confidence and so needs some encouraging to get
> on. According
> to my friend - the boy's father -  the boy is very smart, but have
> never learned (well,
> never needed to learn) how to work. The father have asked me to try
> and talk to the
> boy and show him how to go on, maybe teach him how to work, and
> possibly
> encourage the 'kid' to invest some effort in his education. As I
> understand it, the
> guy either gets on within the next couple of weeks, or not at all.
> 
> What I have in mind is to teach the 'kid' how to read a textbook:
> 
> - Look up subject-specific terms and phrases
> - Distill the purpose and emphasis of each section to at most 5
> sentences or
>   lines of text
> - Work through the examples and exercises to gain basic skills
> - 'Trick' the guy into proving Pythagoras' theorem on triangles from
> simple
>    geometric arguments, to build some self-esteem.
> 
> Now, I know at least some of the regulars here have done similar stuff
> in the
> past and probably others who have not mentioned it here.
> 
> I would be most obliged to hear about any experiences and tips (not to
> mention
> "Don't!!'s")  from anyone who have done similar stuff in the past.
> 
> Rune

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:41:51 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:

> On 5 Jan, 17:31, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:02:44 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
>> > Hi all.
>>
>> > A couple of days ago a friend of mine approached me with certain
>> > concerns about
>> > his son, aged 19-20,
> ...
> 
>> So if you do a web search for "gifted" and "college" and maybe
>> "difficulty" you may find some material that will help, from people
>> who've been there.
> 
> I don't know the guy very well, so I have no first-hand impression.
> There are some resources around that I have pointed the father to.
> 
>> (and my narrow US
>> provincialism wants me to believe that it'll be worse where you are),
> 
> It is infinitely worse. If you have a good translator-bot the material
> found at http://barn.ystenes.com might cause you to consider yourself
> lucky - mo matter you might think of the US system - that you are not
> here.
> 
> Rune

Actually I thank provenance every day that not only am I in the US where 
things are generally better for home schoolers than other countries, but 
that I'm in the Oregon City school district.  The nearest 'ritzy' town 
bills itself aggressively as having a good T&G program, but what they 
really have is a program for sorta-gifted sons & daughters of CEOs.  
Their approach to the "square peg and a round hole" problem is to keep 
some Really Big mallets around.  This works because they either cow their 
'problem children' or force them out of school where they can be safely 
ignored.

OC, on the other hand, was bending over backwards to help our first boy.  
_We_ finally took pity on _them_ and pulled him out of 3rd grade (he had 
behavioral problems on top of his academic intelligence) and started home 
schooling.  Even there we still got support -- they ran a special campus 
to support home schoolers, which has morphed into a charter school for 
home schoolers _with_ lots of support from the district, and they let him 
attend science classes in the middle school when he was in 3rd grade.

He's driving now, showing no signs of becoming a mass murderer or 
otherwise a drain on society's resources.  He's even appalled by my 
sometimes-too-colorful language and the occasional comment or reminisce 
about less-than-legal recreational drug use in my misspent youth.

Our second kid we just never bothered -- we went straight to home school 
for him.

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com