# Does Anyone read Mr.Harris's book "Multirate signal processing for communication systems"

Started by May 18, 2010
```Hi, Friends!

Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book
"Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ?

I think it's a good book for engineering,
but some descriptions make me confused.

On page 53, Chapter 3
"For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for
60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the
side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB
which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of
input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression
of -51 .2dB, equivalent."

Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning?
And why it's "-36.1dB "?
It's a pity that Mr.Harris may does not receive my Email and doesn't reply.
Who can give me a help for this question?

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```
```On May 18, 1:26&#2013266080;am, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Friends!
>
> &#2013266080;Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book
> "Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ?
>
> &#2013266080;I think it's a good book for engineering,
> but some descriptions make me confused.
>
> On page 53, Chapter 3
> "For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for
> 60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the
> side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB
> which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of
> input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression
> of -51 .2dB, equivalent."
>
> Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning?

That's the name of the integral of the filter response across all the
sidelobes in the stopband.

> And why it's "-36.1dB "?

That's the calculation of the integral of the filter response across
all the sidelobes in the stopband.

>...

Dale B. Dalrymple
```
```On 5/18/2010 4:26 AM, Zhi.Shen wrote:
> Hi, Friends!
>
>   Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book
> "Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ?
>
>   I think it's a good book for engineering,
> but some descriptions make me confused.
>
> On page 53, Chapter 3
> "For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for
> 60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the
> side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB
> which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of
> input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression
> of -51 .2dB, equivalent."
>
> Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning?
> And why it's "-36.1dB "?
> It's a pity that Mr.Harris may does not receive my Email and doesn't reply.
> Who can give me a help for this question?

http://www.google.com/search?q=integrated+sidelobe+level&spell

http://electrical.sdsu.edu/faculty/frederick_harris.html

Jerry
--
"I view the progress of science as ... the slow erosion of the tendency
to dichotomize." --Barbara Smuts, U. Mich.
&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
```
```On 5/18/2010 11:29 AM, dbd wrote:
> On May 18, 1:26 am, "Zhi.Shen"<zhi.m.s...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Hi, Friends!
>>
>>   Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book
>> "Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ?
>>
>>   I think it's a good book for engineering,
>> but some descriptions make me confused.
>>
>> On page 53, Chapter 3
>> "For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for
>> 60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the
>> side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB
>> which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of
>> input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression
>> of -51 .2dB, equivalent."
>>
>> Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning?
>
> That's the name of the integral of the filter response across all the
> sidelobes in the stopband.
>
>> And why it's "-36.1dB "?
>
> That's the calculation of the integral of the filter response across
> all the sidelobes in the stopband.

Of course, it's power that one integrates, not voltage gain.

Jerry
--
"I view the progress of science as ... the slow erosion of the tendency
to dichotomize." --Barbara Smuts, U. Mich.
&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
```
```On Tue, 18 May 2010 08:29:59 -0700 (PDT), dbd <dbd@ieee.org> wrote:

>On May 18, 1:26&#2013266080;am, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, Friends!
>>
>> &#2013266080;Does anyone read Mr. Fredric Harris's book
>> "Multirate signal processing for communication systems" ?
>>
>> &#2013266080;I think it's a good book for engineering,
>> but some descriptions make me confused.
>>
>> On page 53, Chapter 3
>> "For a specific example, the filter presented in Figure 3.20 designed for
>> 60dB side-lobe levels is used in a 32-to-1 down sampling application. If the
>> side-lobes are equiripple at 60-dB the integrated side-lobe level is -36.1dB
>> which, when distributed over the remaining bandwidth of 1/32 (-15.1 dB) of
>> input sample rate, results in an effective alias side-lobe suppression
>> of -51 .2dB, equivalent."
>>
>> Who knows the "integrated side-lobe level"'s meaning?
>
>That's the name of the integral of the filter response across all the
>sidelobes in the stopband.
>
>> And why it's "-36.1dB "?
>
>That's the calculation of the integral of the filter response across
>all the sidelobes in the stopband.
>
>>...
>
>Dale B. Dalrymple

Hi Mr. Dalrymple,
Thank you for your post.  I would also like to understand the
origin of the -36.1 dB value.

A "dB" measurement is "X db = 10*log10(P1/P2)".  In this case, will
you please tell what are the values of P1 and P2, and how P1 and P2
are computed (determined), in that -36.1 dB measurement?

Thank you very much.
Capt. Convolution
```
```On May 19, 1:09&#2013266080;pm, Capt. Convolution <C.Convolut...@aol.com> wrote:
> ...
>
> Hi Mr. Dalrymple,
> &#2013266080; &#2013266080;Thank you for your post. &#2013266080;I would also like to understand the
> origin of the -36.1 dB value. &#2013266080;
>
> A "dB" measurement is "X db = 10*log10(P1/P2)". &#2013266080;In this case, will
> you please tell what are the values of P1 and P2, and how P1 and P2
> are computed (determined), in that -36.1 dB measurement?
>
> Thank you very much.
> Capt. Convolution

P2, the reference for the dB expression, is the peak of the response
in the passband.

P1 is "the calculation of the integral of the filter response across
all the sidelobes in the stopband."

The "response" is the magnitude squared.

Dale B. Dalrymple
```
```Thank you ALL! Friends!
I have known the meaning of "integrated side-lobe level"
But who can provide a simple example for the calculation process of
integrated side-lobe level?
If it's the process of Harris's -36.1dB,  the Better!

>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
```
```Hi,
I have found a paper to descript the "integrated side-lobe level" exactly.
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf

ISL's(integrated side-lobe level) definition is also appeared in some
others' book, such as

Hamish Meikle's book:  "Modern radar systems", page 316
http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=mGSE_tmA_HQC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22integrated+sidelobe+level%22&source=bl&ots=sO1Ej2YtcI&sig=OKqTRf81j4ak5iL8X3ITCo4DqkE&hl=zh-CN&ei=GaD0S7DJB8qOkQXPytzACA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22integrated%20sidelobe%20level%22&f=false

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
```
```On May 19, 7:40&#2013266080;pm, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you ALL! Friends!
> &#2013266080; I have known the meaning of "integrated side-lobe level"
> But who can provide a simple example for the calculation process of
> integrated side-lobe level?
> &#2013266080; ...

What have you tried?

Dale B. Dalrymple
```
```On Thu, 20 May 2010 10:54:15 +0800, "Zhi.Shen" <zhi.m.shen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi,
Hello Mr. Shen.Zhi,

>  I have found a paper to descript the "integrated side-lobe level" exactly.
>http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123417.pdf

The definition, on page 2, of "integrated side-lobe level" in that PDF
file is written in such a vague way that i was not able to understand
it.  When the author kept referring to a "mainlobe" I could not tell
if the author was referring to the spectrum of a filter output signal,
or the frequency response of the filter.

>ISL's(integrated side-lobe level) definition is also appeared in some
>others' book, such as
>
>Hamish Meikle's book:  "Modern radar systems", page 316
>http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=mGSE_tmA_HQC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22integrated+sidelobe+level%22&source=bl&ots=sO1Ej2YtcI&sig=OKqTRf81j4ak5iL8X3ITCo4DqkE&hl=zh-CN&ei=GaD0S7DJB8qOkQXPytzACA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=%22integrated%20sidelobe%20level%22&f=false

That web site appears to be strickly some Asian language.  I tried
examining the Amazon English version of the book but was unable to
learn anything about "integrated side-lobe level".

Capt. Convolution
```