On Jul 30, 6:21�am, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:> On 07/29/2010 07:44 PM, Manny wrote: > > > > > On Jul 30, 3:09 am, Fred Marshall<fmarshall_xremove_the...@xacm.org> > > wrote: > >> It really pays to ask: "Who is the audience?" �In this case, it appears > >> it was the high level guys - whether you had that figured out up front > >> or not. �That is, their reaction appears to have hurt you (real or > >> imagined) and it's not clear that the low level guys could have done that. > >> - He who pays is the audience. > >> - He who buys is the audience. > >> - He who can hurt is the audience. > > With the benefit of hindsight, I know have a better grasp of the inner > > workings of the organization. The difficulty is that the godfather > > whom I was trying to impress is a techie. Turned out he leaves small > > matters to be managed to less senior people and I don't think he > > interferes too much with their decisions. End of the day, I'm just a > > number. So it all went wrong from here and all the colour-coded > > adaptation plots turned out to be "a failure to abstract away the > > detail." > > >> Then do a skillful job of blending your message with their needs and > >> wants. �If you find a strong mismatch then you have the wrong product > >> for that particular audience. �It's nobody's fault - it just is. �But, > >> lack of clarity should not be allowed to be a reason to fail. �In your > >> case now you need to be the picture of clarity. �Use the KISS principle. > > Guess it's a swift act of fate after all. But what really really gets > > on my nerves is how by placing the bar low, you actually do better > > than trying to do something genuinely true. Rationale here is that the > > impact of 3 small pieces of mediocre work is definitely greater that > > trying to come up with something new, and if anything an incentive to > > keep things average at best riding the tide of the common sense. This > > is what really hurts me, the dreadful thought of having wasted the > > last 3 years of my life. Again you live and learn. > > >> I don't understand why you're giving up. �But then, I'm sure there's a > >> lot I don't understand. �Is there no way to convey pieces of the message > >> here and there, now and then until it becomes *their* idea, their need > >> so that they come to you? �And, in the process be Mr. Clarity? > > Because my time expires soon and everything I've been doing has been > > deemed cool, but unclear! The people I work with have agendas and it's > > all to do with maximizing perceived output. I only realized this now. > > I'm not trying to victimize myself here, I'm simply unwanted I guess. > > >> If it's in Power Point or similar form, you might share for some > >> critique. �Right how it's all pretty vague. �Or, should I say: "lacks > >> clarity"? � :-) > > I just angry with the excuse they came up with; clarity. Pretty > > symbolic comes across to me and was directed more at me as an > > individual rather than at my work as evident by the phrase "we don't > > work with people who lack clarity." I.e. they never said: "alright, if > > you convince us you'r in." More like: "it's over and don't try again." > > > Ah. Thanks Fred for your post. > > Some observations: > > Sometimes the boss is a saint, sometimes he's an asshole.For the record, I've got nothing but respect for my boss. Gave me quite a bit of freedom from early on and believed in me.> Sometimes, no matter how well you do, it's all in the luck of the draw.It would certainly seem so.> Or find another company. �I like smaller companies, because when you do > well it's more noticeable.I'm trying to remain general here and not give away too much details. The sadder part (there was a sad part earlier), it that the thing I'm asking for is just a temporary fix and nothing too great to fester about. Of the order of few months to patch me up, and totally within their grasp. Something to only give me legitimacy and help me find something else later. Thanks Tim. -Momo
advice on course of action - a techie's retribution
Started by ●July 29, 2010
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Manny <mloulah@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Jul 30, 5:14�am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote: >> On 7/29/2010 8:39 PM, Manny wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Jul 30, 1:36 am, Greg Berchin<gberc...@comicast.net.invalid> >> > wrote: >> >> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT), Manny<mlou...@hotmail.com> �wrote: >> >>> And if the "high level" dude chose to override the >> >>> "low level" dude's judgement, it tells you a thing or two, doesn't it? >> >> >> Yes. �It tells me that you need to re-read the final sentence in my description >> >> of option (6). >> >> >>> That said, there are >> >>> certain things that I could stall and go and do with the Asians while >> >>> completely operating within the law and the professional code of >> >>> conduct. >> >> >> I can only conclude that you don't "get it". >> > I am doing research on something. And by definition, everything I come >> > up with is mine AND is in the public domain. >> >> Only if you didn't draw a salary for doing it. If you were paid, >> everything you come up with belongs to whomever paid you. > >Yes. But whatever I was compensated for didn't call for an average of >at least 10+ hours a day. And according to people, I've exceeded the >target for deliverables. So I might as well leave something for me to >tinker with later. >If you are a salaried person, they might as well have paid you 10 cents/month and they'd still own all your output (of course you'd not have accepted 10c/m but you accepted what ever you're being paid now). Also you most probably used the company's resources (computers, other equipment, office etc.) to do your work so you really don't get to keep anything for yourself in these conditions; other than the knowledge that what ever you did can be done.>I'll get all the legal matters clarified by a professional. Thanks for >the note.I'd do that now rather than later because the way your thought process is going now, you might get yourself in significant trouble if you follow it. -- Muzaffer Kal DSPIA INC. ASIC/FPGA Design Services http://www.dspia.com
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
On Jul 30, 12:14�am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:> On 7/29/2010 8:39 PM, Manny wrote: > > > > On Jul 30, 1:36 am, Greg Berchin<gberc...@comicast.net.invalid> > > wrote: > >> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT), Manny<mlou...@hotmail.com> �wrote: > >>> And if the "high level" dude chose to override the > >>> "low level" dude's judgement, it tells you a thing or two, doesn't it? > > >> Yes. �It tells me that you need to re-read the final sentence in my description > >> of option (6). > > >>> That said, there are > >>> certain things that I could stall and go and do with the Asians while > >>> completely operating within the law and the professional code of > >>> conduct. > > >> I can only conclude that you don't "get it". > > I am doing research on something. And by definition, everything I come > > up with is mine AND is in the public domain. > > Only if you didn't draw a salary for doing it. If you were paid, > everything you come up with belongs to whomever paid you.not to dispute the general truth here, Jerry, but it depends on what you mean by "everything". first of all, if someone paid you as a contractor, it's not all that simple. even with a salaried position, i think all/most of us have learned certain skills in one job that they have taken to another job. does our "5 to 10 years experience" required in some job we are applying for mean that there is nothing in that 5 or 10 years experience that we can take with us from previous employment? for me, one example would be in noise-shaping (or "fraction saving"). just because i *first* used it when i worked for a specific (herein unnamed) company, doesn't mean that i will not put it to good use in a later job, whether contracted or salaried. there were some later employers that didn't give a rat's ass about the value of the technique, so it didn't end up *everywhere* i had worked since. there are some filter design techniques and coefficient calculation techniques that i came up with at various places that remain with me when i had moved on. now that's a specific little technique, not an entire product. if you worked, for a salary, on a product idea, your employer owns it and it is *their* property to burn it or mothball it or use it. r b-j
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
On 30 Jul, 19:38, robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com> wrote:> On Jul 30, 12:14�am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On 7/29/2010 8:39 PM, Manny wrote: > > > > On Jul 30, 1:36 am, Greg Berchin<gberc...@comicast.net.invalid> > > > wrote: > > >> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT), Manny<mlou...@hotmail.com> �wrote: > > >>> And if the "high level" dude chose to override the > > >>> "low level" dude's judgement, it tells you a thing or two, doesn't it? > > > >> Yes. �It tells me that you need to re-read the final sentence in my description > > >> of option (6). > > > >>> That said, there are > > >>> certain things that I could stall and go and do with the Asians while > > >>> completely operating within the law and the professional code of > > >>> conduct. > > > >> I can only conclude that you don't "get it". > > > I am doing research on something. And by definition, everything I come > > > up with is mine AND is in the public domain. > > > Only if you didn't draw a salary for doing it. If you were paid, > > everything you come up with belongs to whomever paid you. > > not to dispute the general truth here, Jerry, but it depends on what > you mean by "everything".No, it doesn't. It depends on the contract. I have worked under contracts that stated that every thought or idea I had while in employment, belonged to my employer. No matter what. It was up to me to not mention what I would like to keep for myself, or I judged to be none of my employer's business. I have worked under contracts where no mentioning of intellectal rights were made. I have worked under contracts where the employer claimed ownership of only the toughts or ideas I had that were pertient to the particular business area, leaving me free to puruse other ideas on my own time. Manny has to do one thing, fast: Read the fine print in his contract. If there is a claim of ownership of his ideas and intellectual contributions, he is most likely screwed. If there isn't, he would want to consult legal advice anyway, as he might still be screwed for reasons not explicitly mentioned in his contract. The main blunder Manny seems to have made (apart from not reading and / or contemplating his terms of employment) is to have delwed into specifics. Now there is no doubt of the stage of development of his ideas if he leaves. If he had only outlined the ideas briefly, he could always have claimed later - at his peril!- that he filled in the details after he left. Rune
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
On 7/30/2010 1:53 PM, Rune Allnor wrote:> On 30 Jul, 19:38, robert bristow-johnson<r...@audioimagination.com> > wrote: >> On Jul 30, 12:14 am, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:...>>> Only if you didn't draw a salary for doing it. If you were paid, >>> everything you come up with belongs to whomever paid you. >> >> not to dispute the general truth here, Jerry, but it depends on what >> you mean by "everything". > > No, it doesn't. It depends on the contract. I have worked under > contracts that stated that every thought or idea I had while in > employment, belonged to my employer. No matter what. It was up to > me to not mention what I would like to keep for myself, or I judged > to be none of my employer's business. I have worked under contracts > where no mentioning of intellectal rights were made. I have worked > under contracts where the employer claimed ownership of only the > toughts or ideas I had that were pertient to the particular business > area, leaving me free to puruse other ideas on my own time.In the US, there are "shop rights". There are also laws that restrict an employer's rights to employees' ideas unrelated to their field of employment. There is also an implied duty to protect the employer's trade secrets. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●July 30, 20102010-07-30
On Jul 29, 11:38�pm, Manny <mlou...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Hi, > > I just gave a talk to a mixed audience comprised of what they term > "high level" and "low level" people on what I've been developing over > the past 3 years. > > I'd thought initially - judging from the immediate response I got from > the "low level" people - that things went down well. Now I've just > discovered to my dismay (understatement) that the "high level" people > who hold sway over my bread think otherwise. And although they liked > what I'm proposing, they take on me my "lack of clarity" in explaining > shit for them. Consequently, they stated that "we don't give jobs to > people who lack clarity." > > What has conspired is that I found myself arguing for something > potentially doable on top of what I've already delivered on and they > kept not getting what I was alluding to. That has - according to my > supervisor - screwed up the natural momentum/karma/shit of the talk > and left behind only lasting dissatisfaction. > > I'm not pissed off like hell and contemplating one of the below: > (1) keep my mouth shut, turn the other cheek, and pray for better > days. > (2) take my time to plan an exist strategy from my current work and > keep my mouth shut until then. > (3) be my father's son and give everybody the finger and quit. > (4) REALLY be my father's son, give everybody the finger, burn down > everything I've developed, and quite. > (5) REALLY REALLY be my father's son, give everybody the finger, burn > down everything I've developed, disappear under the guise of the > night, and go do it all over in Asia. One way ticket to Asia clearly > making the my case that if you failing to understand in 20 minutes > what I've been saddled with for the past three years and holding me > responsible for scratch my ego. > > Any thoughts before it's too late are highly appreciated. > > -MomoAlright folks, thanks for the thoughts. Been really helpful for generating ideas for my upcoming fiction novel "Betrayal, Dagger, and the Crimson Lips." featuring Brad's (my protagonist) back story that explains his melodramatic descent and succumbing to wrongdoing. Many thanks, -Momo
Reply by ●July 31, 20102010-07-31
On 31 Jul, 00:17, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:> On 7/30/2010 1:53 PM, Rune Allnor wrote: > > > On 30 Jul, 19:38, robert bristow-johnson<r...@audioimagination.com> > > wrote: > >> On Jul 30, 12:14 am, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> �wrote: > > � �... > > >>> Only if you didn't draw a salary for doing it. If you were paid, > >>> everything you come up with belongs to whomever paid you. > > >> not to dispute the general truth here, Jerry, but it depends on what > >> you mean by "everything". > > > No, it doesn't. It depends on the contract. I have worked under > > contracts that stated that every thought or idea I had while in > > employment, belonged to my employer. No matter what. It was up to > > me to not mention what I would like to keep for myself, or I judged > > to be none of my employer's business. I have worked under contracts > > where no mentioning of intellectal rights were made. I have worked > > under contracts where the employer claimed ownership of only the > > toughts or ideas I had that were pertient to the particular business > > area, leaving me free to puruse other ideas on my own time. > > In the US, there are "shop rights". There are also laws that restrict an > employer's rights to employees' ideas unrelated to their field of > employment.The "we own every thought of yours" terms were in my contract with some government agency.> There is also an implied duty to protect the employer's > trade secrets.Those things are usually spelled out in detail. Probably to prevent any misunderstandings about what is not protected, and to make it abundantly clear that the employer is ready to act on any violations of secrecy etc. Rune
Reply by ●July 31, 20102010-07-31
On 31 Jul, 02:15, Manny <mlou...@hotmail.com> wrote:> On Jul 29, 11:38�pm, Manny <mlou...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > I just gave a talk to a mixed audience comprised of what they term > > "high level" and "low level" people on what I've been developing over > > the past 3 years. > > > I'd thought initially - judging from the immediate response I got from > > the "low level" people - that things went down well. Now I've just > > discovered to my dismay (understatement) that the "high level" people > > who hold sway over my bread think otherwise. And although they liked > > what I'm proposing, they take on me my "lack of clarity" in explaining > > shit for them. Consequently, they stated that "we don't give jobs to > > people who lack clarity." > > > What has conspired is that I found myself arguing for something > > potentially doable on top of what I've already delivered on and they > > kept not getting what I was alluding to. That has - according to my > > supervisor - screwed up the natural momentum/karma/shit of the talk > > and left behind only lasting dissatisfaction. > > > I'm not pissed off like hell and contemplating one of the below: > > (1) keep my mouth shut, turn the other cheek, and pray for better > > days. > > (2) take my time to plan an exist strategy from my current work and > > keep my mouth shut until then. > > (3) be my father's son and give everybody the finger and quit. > > (4) REALLY be my father's son, give everybody the finger, burn down > > everything I've developed, and quite. > > (5) REALLY REALLY be my father's son, give everybody the finger, burn > > down everything I've developed, disappear under the guise of the > > night, and go do it all over in Asia. One way ticket to Asia clearly > > making the my case that if you failing to understand in 20 minutes > > what I've been saddled with for the past three years and holding me > > responsible for scratch my ego. > > > Any thoughts before it's too late are highly appreciated. > > > -Momo > > Alright folks, thanks for the thoughts. Been really helpful for > generating ideas for my upcoming fiction novel "Betrayal, Dagger, and > the Crimson Lips." featuring Brad's (my protagonist) back story that > explains his melodramatic descent and succumbing to wrongdoing.Why do you think there are so many "mad scientists" and "evil engineers" in the fictions? You're not the first person to discover the hard way what signing a contract implies; you will not be the last. Get over it. Get on with doing work that fetches a salary. Rune
Reply by ●July 31, 20102010-07-31
On 7/31/2010 5:16 AM, Rune Allnor wrote:> On 31 Jul, 00:17, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:...>> In the US, there are "shop rights". There are also laws that restrict an >> employer's rights to employees' ideas unrelated to their field of >> employment. > > The "we own every thought of yours" terms were in my contract > with some government agency.This was also in my contract with Siemens. I pointed out to the HR guy that not only was it unenforcible in the US, it also nullified other provisions. A few months after I was hired, the terms were modified.>> There is also an implied duty to protect the employer's >> trade secrets. > > Those things are usually spelled out in detail. Probably to > prevent any misunderstandings about what is not protected, and > to make it abundantly clear that the employer is ready to > act on any violations of secrecy etc.Yes. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●August 2, 20102010-08-02
On Jul 31, 10:19�am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:> Why do you think there are so many "mad scientists" and > "evil engineers" in the fictions?Philosophy (and science as a special case) is withering; on the other side, you emerge another person. And since the money is crap anyway, you'r certainly better off driving a cab. -Momo
