Good morning, as part of a masters project I'm currently working on I need to extract the doppler shift from a digital signal in a DSP. So far I'm successfully sampling the signal, which is centered at 4.88kHz with a Doppler shift of about +/- 1.5kHz. Previously I extracted the Doppler Shift using Matlab's "demod" function (FM demodulation) which worked quite well. I now implemented a quadrature mixer and mixed demodulator as described in [1, p57ff] however I can't get the FM demodulation to work, my outputs just settle at -4001 (Q15) or -0.1221 (decimal). The DSP I'm using is fixed point only, so I can't go the "easier" route of implementing this is floating point algebra. Now instead of spending a lot of time trying to analyse where I'm going wrong I was wondering what other, possibly easier, methods of simply extracting the Doppler shift you'd suggest ? I though about doing an FFT on the data and extracting the Doppler shift from the FFT. Is this sensible in any way? I'm only interested in "Doppler shift vs time" for this application. I'd be really grateful for any pointers towards a simple implementation of extracting the Doppler shift. Thanks Chris [1] http://www.medialab.ch/archiv/pdf_studien_diplomarbeiten/da01/da2001-089_FmDemodulator.pdf

# FM Demodulation to extract Doppler Shift

Started by ●October 22, 2010

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

This doesn't answer your question about alternative methods but have you implemented your current algorithm on a PC with perhaps simulated data? (Both in floating point and fixed point math?) The idea is that it would be much easier to debug your code on a PC than on a DSP chip. Chris

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

I didn't read the reference so I don't know if this will help. But if you sum your I and Q channels over some period, and then take arctan(Q_sum/I_sum) it will produce the average difference in phase of the sampled signal (-pi/2,pi/2) and the reference signal during that period. Take the derivative of the phase values over the integration period and you will get the doppler shift. The integration period will determine the maximum doppler shift you can detect. From memory I think it's 1/2T, where T is the integration period.

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

On 10/22/2010 07:50 AM, Chris Maryan wrote:> This doesn't answer your question about alternative methods but have > you implemented your current algorithm on a PC with perhaps simulated > data? (Both in floating point and fixed point math?) > > The idea is that it would be much easier to debug your code on a PC > than on a DSP chip.Indeed. Depending on how much of the code you want to keep, you could do this in Matlab by using a fixed-point type or by quantizing at all the critical steps (either one would be a pain, with Matlab it may be easier to do the quantization -- but I'm not a Matlab user). Doing it in C would work, too, but be aware of integer size differences if your DSP is a 16 bit machine. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

On 10/22/2010 07:36 AM, Chris87 wrote:> Good morning, > > as part of a masters project I'm currently working on I need to extract the > doppler shift from a digital signal in a DSP. > > So far I'm successfully sampling the signal, which is centered at 4.88kHz > with a Doppler shift of about +/- 1.5kHz. > > Previously I extracted the Doppler Shift using Matlab's "demod" function > (FM demodulation) which worked quite well. I now implemented a quadrature > mixer and mixed demodulator as described in [1, p57ff] however I can't get > the FM demodulation to work, my outputs just settle at -4001 (Q15) or > -0.1221 (decimal). The DSP I'm using is fixed point only, so I can't go the > "easier" route of implementing this is floating point algebra. > > Now instead of spending a lot of time trying to analyse where I'm going > wrong I was wondering what other, possibly easier, methods of simply > extracting the Doppler shift you'd suggest ? > > I though about doing an FFT on the data and extracting the Doppler shift > from the FFT. Is this sensible in any way? I'm only interested in "Doppler > shift vs time" for this application. > > I'd be really grateful for any pointers towards a simple implementation of > extracting the Doppler shift. > > Thanks > > Chris > > [1] > http://www.medialab.ch/archiv/pdf_studien_diplomarbeiten/da01/da2001-089_FmDemodulator.pdfProposing to do this with an FFT is akin to saying that your bicycle tire is flat, so you want to get a semi truck and trailer to get from your dorm to class. Yes, you can do that, but fixing the problem with what you have is probably easier. I'd suggest that you start by writing your own FM demodulator in Matlab, using floating point. Use it instead of "demod". This will make sure you know how to make the algorithm itself work. Save a copy of that away in case you need it later, then modify your working copy to do the same thing in fixed point, in a way that simulates the action of the data type that you're using on your DSP. Once you're sure that works, then translate that algorithm to the DSP. Because you already know the algorithm works, you only have to worry about coding errors. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

On 10/22/2010 08:57 AM, Brian wrote:> I didn't read the reference so I don't know if this will help. But if > you sum your I and Q channels over some period, and then take > arctan(Q_sum/I_sum) it will produce the average difference in phase of > the sampled signal (-pi/2,pi/2) and the reference signal during that > period. Take the derivative of the phase values over the integration > period and you will get the doppler shift. The integration period will > determine the maximum doppler shift you can detect. From memory I > think it's 1/2T, where T is the integration period.In skimming the reference I found a number of different ways to do this. I'm not sure if yours was included, but most of the other popular ways were. I think the OP's biggest problem is just getting it implemented in fixed point. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

FM at 4.8kHz ? A 8 bit microcontroller would do. VLV Tim Wescott wrote:> On 10/22/2010 07:36 AM, Chris87 wrote: > >> Good morning, >> >> as part of a masters project I'm currently working on I need to >> extract the >> doppler shift from a digital signal in a DSP. >> >> So far I'm successfully sampling the signal, which is centered at 4.88kHz >> with a Doppler shift of about +/- 1.5kHz. >> >> Previously I extracted the Doppler Shift using Matlab's "demod" function >> (FM demodulation) which worked quite well. I now implemented a quadrature >> mixer and mixed demodulator as described in [1, p57ff] however I can't >> get >> the FM demodulation to work, my outputs just settle at -4001 (Q15) or >> -0.1221 (decimal). The DSP I'm using is fixed point only, so I can't >> go the >> "easier" route of implementing this is floating point algebra. >> >> Now instead of spending a lot of time trying to analyse where I'm going >> wrong I was wondering what other, possibly easier, methods of simply >> extracting the Doppler shift you'd suggest ? >> >> I though about doing an FFT on the data and extracting the Doppler shift >> from the FFT. Is this sensible in any way? I'm only interested in >> "Doppler >> shift vs time" for this application. >> >> I'd be really grateful for any pointers towards a simple >> implementation of >> extracting the Doppler shift. >> >> Thanks >> >> Chris >> >> [1] >> http://www.medialab.ch/archiv/pdf_studien_diplomarbeiten/da01/da2001-089_FmDemodulator.pdf >> > > > Proposing to do this with an FFT is akin to saying that your bicycle > tire is flat, so you want to get a semi truck and trailer to get from > your dorm to class. Yes, you can do that, but fixing the problem with > what you have is probably easier. > > I'd suggest that you start by writing your own FM demodulator in Matlab, > using floating point. Use it instead of "demod". This will make sure > you know how to make the algorithm itself work. > > Save a copy of that away in case you need it later, then modify your > working copy to do the same thing in fixed point, in a way that > simulates the action of the data type that you're using on your DSP. > > Once you're sure that works, then translate that algorithm to the DSP. > Because you already know the algorithm works, you only have to worry > about coding errors. >

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

On 10/22/2010 09:38 AM, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: (top post fixed)> > > Tim Wescott wrote: > >> On 10/22/2010 07:36 AM, Chris87 wrote: >> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> as part of a masters project I'm currently working on I need to >>> extract the >>> doppler shift from a digital signal in a DSP. >>> >>> So far I'm successfully sampling the signal, which is centered at >>> 4.88kHz >>> with a Doppler shift of about +/- 1.5kHz. >>> >>> Previously I extracted the Doppler Shift using Matlab's "demod" function >>> (FM demodulation) which worked quite well. I now implemented a >>> quadrature >>> mixer and mixed demodulator as described in [1, p57ff] however I >>> can't get >>> the FM demodulation to work, my outputs just settle at -4001 (Q15) or >>> -0.1221 (decimal). The DSP I'm using is fixed point only, so I can't >>> go the >>> "easier" route of implementing this is floating point algebra. >>> >>> Now instead of spending a lot of time trying to analyse where I'm going >>> wrong I was wondering what other, possibly easier, methods of simply >>> extracting the Doppler shift you'd suggest ? >>> >>> I though about doing an FFT on the data and extracting the Doppler shift >>> from the FFT. Is this sensible in any way? I'm only interested in >>> "Doppler >>> shift vs time" for this application. >>> >>> I'd be really grateful for any pointers towards a simple >>> implementation of >>> extracting the Doppler shift. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> [1] >>> http://www.medialab.ch/archiv/pdf_studien_diplomarbeiten/da01/da2001-089_FmDemodulator.pdf >>> >> >> >> Proposing to do this with an FFT is akin to saying that your bicycle >> tire is flat, so you want to get a semi truck and trailer to get from >> your dorm to class. Yes, you can do that, but fixing the problem with >> what you have is probably easier. >> >> I'd suggest that you start by writing your own FM demodulator in >> Matlab, using floating point. Use it instead of "demod". This will >> make sure you know how to make the algorithm itself work. >> >> Save a copy of that away in case you need it later, then modify your >> working copy to do the same thing in fixed point, in a way that >> simulates the action of the data type that you're using on your DSP. >> >> Once you're sure that works, then translate that algorithm to the DSP. >> Because you already know the algorithm works, you only have to worry >> about coding errors. >>> > FM at 4.8kHz ? A 8 bit microcontroller would do. > > VLV > Good point -- I should have _thought_ about what the frequency implied. And if an 8-bit micro will do, then one can easily do this with floating point in a DSP. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

Tim Wescott wrote:> On 10/22/2010 09:38 AM, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:> > FM at 4.8kHz ? A 8 bit microcontroller would do.> Good point -- I should have _thought_ about what the frequency implied. > And if an 8-bit micro will do, then one can easily do this with > floating point in a DSP.No. A 8-bit microcontroller would do in the floating point. VLV

Reply by ●October 22, 20102010-10-22

On 10/22/2010 10:40 AM, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:> > > Tim Wescott wrote: > >> On 10/22/2010 09:38 AM, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > >> > FM at 4.8kHz ? A 8 bit microcontroller would do. > >> Good point -- I should have _thought_ about what the frequency >> implied. And if an 8-bit micro will do, then one can easily do this >> with floating point in a DSP. > > No. A 8-bit microcontroller would do in the floating point.I didn't say it wouldn't, although it'd have to be a new one: shoe-horning it into the 0.5MIPS machines that were available when I graduated would be a challenge. Trying to do the job using the FFT, as the OP proposed, may bring it out of the 8-bit class and firmly into DSP territory, however. The OP's post has "senior project" written all over it, in which case one of his customer (i.e. advisor) requirements could well be "use this here eval board". -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html