OT Pastafarian Victorious!

>On Jul 25, 2:14=A0am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>> On Jul 14, 5:46=A0am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hooray for the Flying Spaghetti
Monster!http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world=
>-europe-14135523
>>
>> Better that than a "Christian fundamentalist" freemason
>> with an ambition to instigate another Crusade and
>> general religious wars.
>>
>> Rune
>
>He seems to be more of a self proclaimed Darwinist.  Freemasonry and
>fundamental Christianity are mutually exclusive (fundamental
>Christianity as defined in the USA is a conservative christian who
>believes in the inerency of the bible the virgin birth, the
>resurrection, etc. he does not appear to believe  literally in this
>stuff).  He is sympathetic with the Christian culture of Europe but
>but seems to be a far cry from being a Christian.

Culture and religion are deeply intertwined for much of the world. Ask the
average person in the very secular UK what religion they are and they'll
probably say Church of England. Ask them if they believe in God and they'll
say "Of course not. That's superstitious mumbo jumbo."

Steve

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:37:17 -0700 (PDT), Rune Allnor
<allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:

>On Jul 26, 1:27&#4294967295;am, Rick Lyons <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:

   [Snipped by Lyons]

>> Hi Brent,
>> &#4294967295; Although he seems to be anti-Muslim I haven't
>> read anything that indicates that the Oslo
>> murderer was a strict Christian.
>
>The term used in the press conference was 'he frequented
>Christian fundamentalist websites.'
>
>>&#4294967295;It appears he
>> was horrifyingly disturbed by what he perceived
>> as changes in his Norwegian culture caused by
>> Muslim immigrants.
>
>One term used on the news last night was 'counter jihadist.'
>Crusader.
>
>>&#4294967295;We'll learn
>> more, assuming the news agencies write the truth,
>> in the future. &#4294967295;I'd really like to know what were
>> the details of his motivation.
>
>You probably will have to dig for those. The general
>impression is that this tragedy was intended as PR
>for a political manifesto, much inspired by (and,
>apprently, ripped off) Ted Kazinsky.
>
>The local press is extremely cautious to discuss this
>manifesto, as doing so woul play straight into the
>perpetrator's hands.
>
>>&#4294967295;But there's no doubt,
>> he is an insane demon.
>
>Agreed.
>
>Rune

Hi Rune,
  I've heard a few things on American radio 
today indicating that the murderer's 'manifesto' 
contains quotes from the Bible.  If that's true, 
then we can say the Norwegian murderer is following 
what he thinks are principles in the Bible that compel 
him to kill innocent people. 

It reminds me of how Muslim murderers follow what 
they think are principles of the Koran that compel 
them to kill innocent people.

Considering all the religion-related deaths over the 
centuries, it makes one wonder, "All things considered, 
is religion a good thing or a bad thing?"

[-Rick-]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:34:00 -0700, Rick Lyons
<R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:

   [Snipped by Lyons]
>
>Hi Rune,
>  I've heard a few things on American radio 
>today indicating that the murderer's 'manifesto' 
>contains quotes from the Bible.  If that's true, 
>then we can say the Norwegian murderer is following 
>what he thinks are principles in the Bible that compel 
>him to kill innocent people. 
>
>It reminds me of how Muslim murderers follow what 
>they think are principles of the Koran that compel 
>them to kill innocent people.
>
>Considering all the religion-related deaths over the 
>centuries, it makes one wonder, "All things considered, 
>is religion a good thing or a bad thing?"
>
>[-Rick-]

It sounded like I was 'bad-mouthing' religion in 
my last post.  Maybe I was.   But let's be complete 
here.   It's my guess that the sum of all religion-
based killings over the centuries is small compared 
to the number of Communist politically-based killings 
in China, the Soviet Union, and Indochina.

[-Rick-]

On 27 Jul., 00:57, Rick Lyons <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:34:00 -0700, Rick Lyons
>
> <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0[Snipped by Lyons]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Hi Rune,
> > =A0I've heard a few things on American radio
> >today indicating that the murderer's 'manifesto'
> >contains quotes from the Bible. =A0If that's true,
> >then we can say the Norwegian murderer is following
> >what he thinks are principles in the Bible that compel
> >him to kill innocent people.
>
> >It reminds me of how Muslim murderers follow what
> >they think are principles of the Koran that compel
> >them to kill innocent people.
>
> >Considering all the religion-related deaths over the
> >centuries, it makes one wonder, "All things considered,
> >is religion a good thing or a bad thing?"
>
> >[-Rick-]
>
> It sounded like I was 'bad-mouthing' religion in
> my last post. =A0Maybe I was. =A0 But let's be complete
> here. =A0 It's my guess that the sum of all religion-
> based killings over the centuries is small compared
> to the number of Communist politically-based killings
> in China, the Soviet Union, and Indochina.
>
> [-Rick-]

a whole lot of the "religius killings" are really
politically-based, religion is just used as an excuse

most religions seems to be purpose build to give power
to the few at the top who has "the truth". Keeping people in
check by scaring them with some horrible punishment after death
if they do not do as told be those with "the truth"

when someone has been programmed to believe that as the absolute
it is just too inviting not abuse it for someone with political
ambitions

-Lasse

On 25 Jul., 13:47, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 1:29=A0pm, brent <buleg...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 7:11=A0am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 25, 12:59=A0pm, brent <buleg...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 25, 2:14=A0am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 14, 5:46=A0am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hooray for the Flying Spaghetti Monster!http://www.bbc.co.uk/ne=
ws/world-europe-14135523
>
> > > > > Better that than a "Christian fundamentalist" freemason
> > > > > with an ambition to instigate another Crusade and
> > > > > general religious wars.
>
> > > > > Rune
>
> > > > He seems to be more of a self proclaimed Darwinist. =A0Freemasonry =
and
> > > > fundamental Christianity are mutually exclusive (fundamental
> > > > Christianity as defined in the USA is a conservative christian who
> > > > believes in the inerency of the bible the virgin birth, the
> > > > resurrection, etc. he does not appear to believe =A0literally in th=
is
> > > > stuff). =A0He is sympathetic with the Christian culture of Europe b=
ut
> > > > but seems to be a far cry from being a Christian.
>
> > > It was a police representative that first used the term
> > > 'Christian fundamentalist'.
>
> > > It seems the term was used not to describe the opinions
> > > as such, but the general state of mind, in the sense 'does
> > > not accept any views or opinions different from his own,
> > > and is prepared to use any means available to make that
> > > point.'
>
> > > I suppose it is a matter of semantics whether this
> > > qualifies as 'fundamentalist' or not; it certainly
> > > does *not* matter to his hundreds of victims.
>
> > > Rune
>
> > No it does not matter in that sense. =A0I read somewhere that according
> > to Norway law he might only be put in prison for 21 years. =A0Is that
> > true?
>
> Yes, that's the maximum *prison* penalty. Minus 30% for served
> time, or whatever - very, very few people serve the full time.
>
> However, in recent years 'forvaring', a 'confinement' or
> 'containment'
> type of penalty, has been introduced. I don't know exactly what this
> is, but my impression is that this is a kind of prison term
> that is subjected to different legal constraints that 'mere'
> prison.
>
> With a prison sentence your legal rights are well-defined, and
> you are subjected to various evaluations etc at set times.
> And you know the maximum time of your sentence.
>
> With 'forvaring' all of that seems to become quite blury.
> As I understand it, a 'forvaring' sentence is first of
> all open (might be extended), and not time-limited.
>
> Don't be surprised if this guy's sentence becomes 21 years
> of prison + indefinite 'forvaring'.
>
> Rune

as far as I've read they might attempt to make two cases one
for each act of terror each carrying 21 years max sentence,
don't know if the law makes that possible

if forvaring is like in Denmark I believe they can keep him
for as long as he is seen as a danger, which I'm sure is already
a given forever

hopefully it'll be a speedy trial, we don't need to hear any speeches
from him

-Lasse

>most religions seems to be purpose build to give power
>to the few at the top who has "the truth". Keeping people in
>check by scaring them with some horrible punishment after death
>if they do not do as told be those with "the truth"

Most religions have been specifically crafted to support political goals.
For example, most of the kings of Europe deferred to the Pope for
centuries, because it allowed them to claim a direct line to God, and
justified their position. The Pope was financed by the kings, so everyone
was happy.

Steve

On Jul 27, 12:34=A0am, Rick Lyons <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:37:17 -0700 (PDT), Rune Allnor
>
> <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> >On Jul 26, 1:27 am, Rick Lyons <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0[Snipped by Lyons]
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi Brent,
> >> Although he seems to be anti-Muslim I haven't
> >> read anything that indicates that the Oslo
> >> murderer was a strict Christian.
>
> >The term used in the press conference was 'he frequented
> >Christian fundamentalist websites.'
>
> >> It appears he
> >> was horrifyingly disturbed by what he perceived
> >> as changes in his Norwegian culture caused by
> >> Muslim immigrants.
>
> >One term used on the news last night was 'counter jihadist.'
> >Crusader.
>
> >> We'll learn
> >> more, assuming the news agencies write the truth,
> >> in the future. I'd really like to know what were
> >> the details of his motivation.
>
> >You probably will have to dig for those. The general
> >impression is that this tragedy was intended as PR
> >for a political manifesto, much inspired by (and,
> >apprently, ripped off) Ted Kazinsky.
>
> >The local press is extremely cautious to discuss this
> >manifesto, as doing so woul play straight into the
> >perpetrator's hands.
>
> >> But there's no doubt,
> >> he is an insane demon.
>
> >Agreed.
>
> >Rune
>
> Hi Rune,
> =A0 I've heard a few things on American radio
> today indicating that the murderer's 'manifesto'
> contains quotes from the Bible. =A0If that's true,
> then we can say the Norwegian murderer is following
> what he thinks are principles in the Bible that compel
> him to kill innocent people.

Sure. That's what the term 'crusader' is all about.

Religion is certainly at the core: He seems to see what he
percieves as Norwegian culture under threat. What has been
known about his activities seems to indicate that Christianity
(and thus, the bible) is an essential part of what he tried
to 'defend'.

In that sense, yes, the bible was an essential part of what
seems to have driven him.

The last couple of days it seems he has been part of some
kind of 'crusade revivalist' movement in the UK. It seems
there is a group of people, EDL, who see them selves as
'Knight Templars Revived'. Don't know the accuracy of the
translations in the local news, but it seems some members
of this movement, who have commented on the events, have
made statements "we don't want such events to happen here",
but in a context in which the statement might be interpreted
along the lines of "we would like the issues this maniac
adressed, to be changed in the UK, or similar stuff might
happen here."

Rune

On Jul 27, 1:33=A0am, "langw...@fonz.dk" <langw...@fonz.dk> wrote:

> most religions seems to be purpose build to give power
> to the few at the top who has "the truth". Keeping people in
> check by scaring them with some horrible punishment after death
> if they do not do as told be those with "the truth"

Homo Sapiens is a primate whi live in hierarchial groups.
Whenever two people meet, there will be a Leader and a Follower.
Exactly who takes what role might change with context or time,
but basically people seek to establish who is Leader when
interacting in groups.

Now, in the olden days it was easy to find out who was what:
The King was the Big Man, he ha his Barons, who had Lieutenants,
who had servants, etc.

But who did the King answer to? No Human, that's for sure, so
unless one would got Vlad Tepesz or Czar Ivan IV on one's own
population, one better find a Higher Force to answer to.

Hence the 'Godgiven Reign' (don't know what the proper English
term is), where the King rules by right of some deity.

If the King answers to the gods, the King's servants better
do the same.

> when someone has been programmed to believe that as the absolute
> it is just too inviting not abuse it for someone with political
> ambitions

Sure. Those thought patterns are hard-wired in the human brain.
It's only in the Western cultural sphere, after the Age of
Enlightenment, that attempts have been made, not all succsessful,
to modify such thought patterns.

Rune

On Jul 27, 1:56&#4294967295;am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 1:33&#4294967295;am, "langw...@fonz.dk" <langw...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
> > most religions seems to be purpose build to give power
> > to the few at the top who has "the truth". Keeping people in
> > check by scaring them with some horrible punishment after death
> > if they do not do as told be those with "the truth"
>
> Homo Sapiens is a primate whi live in hierarchial groups.
> Whenever two people meet, there will be a Leader and a Follower.
> Exactly who takes what role might change with context or time,
> but basically people seek to establish who is Leader when
> interacting in groups.

Generalize more completely. Why primates? Dogs (and many other
animals) also live in hierarchical, cooperative groups. What seems to
set humans apart is their willingness to believe that their supreme
leader is not someone they can see or touch. It's not a matter of the
same species; after all, my dog defers to me as her leader (and
provider).

  ...

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can
get.

On Jul 27, 7:10&#4294967295;am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>......... It's not a matter of the
> same species; after all, my dog defers to me as her leader (and
> provider).

Ah Jerry, but what if you look at a different species?  As

http://acompletethought.wordpress.com/2007/02/24/dog-and-cat-theology/

points out,

.....described two Christian viewpoints with a dog
and cat metaphor.  The dog is described as believing,
"You pet me, You feed me, You shelter me, and
You love me.  You must be God."  Whereas the cat&#4294967295;s
intrinsic belief is described as, "you pet Me, you
feed Me, you shelter Me, and you love Me.  I must
be God."

Dilip Sarwate