On Jul 27, 2:10�pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:> On Jul 27, 1:56�am, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:> > Homo Sapiens is a primate...> Generalize more completely.Did I generalize? Or state a fact?> Why primates? Dogs ...Do you think Homo Sapiens is a canine? Rune
OT Pastafarian Victorious!
Started by ●July 14, 2011
Reply by ●July 28, 20112011-07-28
Reply by ●July 28, 20112011-07-28
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT), dvsarwate <dvsarwate@yahoo.com> wrote:>On Jul 27, 7:10�am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote: >>......... It's not a matter of the >> same species; after all, my dog defers to me as her leader (and >> provider). > >Ah Jerry, but what if you look at a different species? As > >http://acompletethought.wordpress.com/2007/02/24/dog-and-cat-theology/ > >points out, > >.....described two Christian viewpoints with a dog >and cat metaphor. The dog is described as believing, >"You pet me, You feed me, You shelter me, and >You love me. You must be God." Whereas the cat�s >intrinsic belief is described as, "you pet Me, you >feed Me, you shelter Me, and you love Me. I must >be God." > >Dilip SarwateHi Dilip, Ha ha ha. You made me laugh out loud. Thanks! Dilip, thinking about dogs, I am reminded of the words of one of America's greatest philosophers: "If you find a sick hungry dog, and take it home, feed and care for it, the dog will not bite you. That's the main difference between men and dogs." -- Mark Twain [-Rick-]
Reply by ●July 29, 20112011-07-29
On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:07:47 PM UTC-4, dvsarwate wrote: ...> Ah Jerry, but what if you look at a different species? As > > http://acompletethought.wordpress.com/2007/02/24/dog-and-cat-theology/ > > points out, > > .....described two Christian viewpoints with a dog > and cat metaphor. The dog is described as believing, > "You pet me, You feed me, You shelter me, and > You love me. You must be God." Whereas the cat�s > intrinsic belief is described as, "you pet Me, you > feed Me, you shelter Me, and you love Me. I must > be God."I'm fond of quoting that. It is older than the article. I sometimes put it differently: "Dogs have owners. Cats have staff." Nevertheless, almost without exception, wild variants of animals that have been successfully domesticated live in groups with a dominant leader. Felines less than most others, and it appears that dogs domesticated themselves. Wolves and apes will look at your finger if you point at something. Dogs usually look where you point. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
Reply by ●July 29, 20112011-07-29
On Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:20:35 AM UTC-4, Rune Allnor wrote: ...> Did I generalize? Or state a fact?You stated a narrow fact where I felt that a broader generalization might have been more instructive. You wrote> Homo Sapiens is a primate who live in hierarchical groups. [sp corrected] > Whenever two people meet, there will be a Leader and a Follower. > Exactly who takes what role might change with context or time, > but basically people seek to establish who is Leader when > interacting in groups.> > Why primates? Dogs ... > > Do you think Homo Sapiens is a canine?Of course not, but you might have written, "Homo Sapiens is one of the animals that lives in communal groups. Whenever two such animals meet ..." The propensity to follow a strong leader seems to be innate in most of the species that Homo Sapiens has succeeded in domesticating. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
Reply by ●July 30, 20112011-07-30
On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:>On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:07:47 PM UTC-4, dvsarwate wrote: > > ... > >> Ah Jerry, but what if you look at a different species? As >>=20 >> http://acompletethought.wordpress.com/2007/02/24/dog-and-cat-theology/ >>=20 >> points out, >>=20 >> .....described two Christian viewpoints with a dog >> and cat metaphor. The dog is described as believing, >> "You pet me, You feed me, You shelter me, and >> You love me. You must be God." Whereas the cat=92s >> intrinsic belief is described as, "you pet Me, you >> feed Me, you shelter Me, and you love Me. I must >> be God." > >I'm fond of quoting that. It is older than the article. I sometimes put it = >differently: "Dogs have owners. Cats have staff." > >Nevertheless, almost without exception, wild variants of animals that have = >been successfully domesticated live in groups with a dominant leader. Felin= >es less than most others, and it appears that dogs domesticated themselves.= > Wolves and apes will look at your finger if you point at something. Dogs u= >sually look where you point.Some, but not all, dogs will look where you point in my experience, and I think it's usually dogs who get that that's where you threw the ball or something like that. I can get some cats to look where I want if I pretend to throw something, but usually it's the ones that have done retrieving games before (just like dogs). Cats generally aren't pack or herd animals, they're solitary hunters, so their social interaction is much different than most domesticaed animals. Lions are an exception, but most people don't keep those around. ;) Eric Jacobsen http://www.ericjacobsen.org http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1//Eric_Jacobsen.php
Reply by ●July 31, 20112011-07-31
>> Wolves and apes will look at your finger if you point at something. Dogs >> usually look where you point. > >Some, but not all, dogs will look where you point in my experience, >and I think it's usually dogs who get that that's where you threw the >ball or something like that. I can get some cats to look where I >want if I pretend to throw something, but usually it's the ones that >have done retrieving games before (just like dogs).Both wolves and dogs look at your finger. If you are playing with a dog, throw a stick, and point at it, the dog goes to the stick because in your shared activity that's the obvious focus point. Try getting a dog to show interest in, say, a ball you encounter that just happens to be lying on the grass a few metres away, and they'll keep looking at you finger..... unless they just happen to notice the ball themselves. The change from focussing on what's moving to grasping its symbolism is a huge step I don't think dogs have made. Steve
Reply by ●July 31, 20112011-07-31
On Sat, 30 Jul 2011 23:39:41 -0500, "steveu" <steveu@n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> wrote:>>> Wolves and apes will look at your finger if you point at something. Dogs >>> usually look where you point. >> >>Some, but not all, dogs will look where you point in my experience, >>and I think it's usually dogs who get that that's where you threw the >>ball or something like that. I can get some cats to look where I >>want if I pretend to throw something, but usually it's the ones that >>have done retrieving games before (just like dogs). > >Both wolves and dogs look at your finger. If you are playing with a dog, >throw a stick, and point at it, the dog goes to the stick because in your >shared activity that's the obvious focus point. Try getting a dog to show >interest in, say, a ball you encounter that just happens to be lying on the >grass a few metres away, and they'll keep looking at you finger..... unless >they just happen to notice the ball themselves. The change from focussing >on what's moving to grasping its symbolism is a huge step I don't think >dogs have made. > >SteveI think it works if the pointing motion is similar enough to throwing motion (which is what I meant but probably didn't say adequately). Otherwise I'd agree that just a static encounter and a relatively passive point doesn't do much with any animal I've encountered. A friend had a pet chicken and he'd point to the location of a cricket with a stick or flyswatter and the chicken would go right to the cricket. That's the only instance in my experience or awareness where I've seen a more typical "point" be properly interpreted by an animal. I think that one got trained from a youngster, though, and tasty food was involved, so that training may have been more powerful. Eric Jacobsen http://www.ericjacobsen.org http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1//Eric_Jacobsen.php
