OT: Split Washer "state" surface

I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.

Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt 
with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of 
societies.

There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a 
state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the 
state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split 
in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.

Any references, recollections?

Thanks,

Fred

On 9 Nov, 21:24, Fred Marshall <fmarshallxremove_th...@acm.org> wrote:
> I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.
>
> Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
> with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
> societies.
>
> There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
> The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
> state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
> state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
> in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.
>
> Any references, recollections?

Nope, but googling for sociology (= 'psychology of society') +cycle
yields something that may or may not be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cycle_theory

Rune

On Nov 9, 2:24&#4294967295;pm, Fred Marshall <fmarshallxremove_th...@acm.org>
wrote:
> I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.
>
> Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
> with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
> societies.
>
> There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
> The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
> state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
> state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
> in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.
>
> Any references, recollections?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fred

Fred,
I don't know if this is the type of thing you're talking about, but
here is an excerpt from http://www.timepage.org/time.html. I have
heard about The Fourth Turning, and thought the premise was very
interesting. Hope this helps.

Maurice Givens


If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
history.

On 9 Nov, 21:37, maury <maury...@core.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2:24&#4294967295;pm, Fred Marshall <fmarshallxremove_th...@acm.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.
>
> > Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
> > with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
> > societies.
>
> > There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
> > The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
> > state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
> > state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
> > in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.
>
> > Any references, recollections?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Fred
>
> Fred,
> I don't know if this is the type of thing you're talking about, but
> here is an excerpt fromhttp://www.timepage.org/time.html. I have
> heard about The Fourth Turning, and thought the premise was very
> interesting. Hope this helps.
>
> Maurice Givens
>
> If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
> later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
> ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
> on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
> every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
> that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
> distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
> apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
> books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
> American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
> mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
> and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
> history.

<Pseudo Science>

The idea seems to be similar to families of self-made men (SMM):

Generation 0 (parents of SMM) are not outstanding in any way
Generation 1 (the SMM) rises from the crowd, to make some fortune
Generation 2 (som of SMM) remembers his fathers work, respects it,
             and expands on it
generation 3 (grandson of SMM) don't understand where fortune came
             from, and squanders it.

</Pseudo Science>

Rune

On 11/9/2011 12:37 PM, maury wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2:24 pm, Fred Marshall<fmarshallxremove_th...@acm.org>
> wrote:
>> I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.
>>
>> Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
>> with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
>> societies.
>>
>> There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
>> The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
>> state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
>> state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
>> in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.
>>
>> Any references, recollections?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Fred
>
> Fred,
> I don't know if this is the type of thing you're talking about, but
> here is an excerpt from http://www.timepage.org/time.html. I have
> heard about The Fourth Turning, and thought the premise was very
> interesting. Hope this helps.
>
> Maurice Givens
>
>
> If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
> later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
> ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
> on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
> every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
> that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
> distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
> apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
> books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
> American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
> mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
> and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
> history.

Hmmmm.. interesting stuff.

Well, what I had seen may have been about cyclical things but I didn't 
get the impression that the cyclical part was necessary, just possible.
That is, if the rate of change or direction of change of the state could 
be affected then the precipice might be avoided.  But it's way to far in 
the dim past.....

Fred

"Fred Marshall"  wrote in message 
news:6jBuq.30284$Dk.22940@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...

I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.

Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
societies.

There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.

Any references, recollections?

Thanks,

Fred

Catastrophe theory...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory

   Best wishes,
 

On 11/9/2011 3:37 PM, maury wrote:


   ...

> If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
> later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
> ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
> on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
> every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
> that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
> distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
> apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
> books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
> American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
> mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
> and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
> history.

Maury,

With people's births being spaced pretty equally around the calendar and 
from year to year, how does he define the borders of a social generation?

Fred,

I think that what you described is a cyclic cusp catastrophe.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On Nov 9, 10:33&#4294967295;pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> On 11/9/2011 3:37 PM, maury wrote:
>
> &#4294967295; &#4294967295;...
>
> > If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
> > later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
> > ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
> > on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
> > every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
> > that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
> > distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
> > apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
> > books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
> > American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
> > mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
> > and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
> > history.
>
> Maury,
>
> With people's births being spaced pretty equally around the calendar and
> from year to year, how does he define the borders of a social generation?
>
> Fred,
>
> I think that what you described is a cyclic cusp catastrophe.
>
> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

Hi Jerry,
As I remember, he does it by generations. By their theory, it takes
about 4 generations to complete a cycle, and that amounts to about 80
to 90 years. I can see some of their conclusions by looking at my
mothers' generation (depression era), my generation (post war era), my
daughters' generation, and the current "young" people. Sort of
collaspe of the economy/system causing frugality, then reaping better
"rewards", followed by selfish disregard, then collaspe of the economy/
system, or something like that.

That's about all I got out of the very little I heard during an
interview with one of the authors.

Maurice

On 11/10/2011 1:53 PM, maury wrote:
> On Nov 9, 10:33 pm, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org>  wrote:
>> On 11/9/2011 3:37 PM, maury wrote:
>>
>>     ...
>>
>>> If you have not read Strauss and Howe's book " Generations " (or their
>>> later book " The Fourth Turning ") I'll try to summarize its main
>>> ideas. Strauss and Howe hypothesize that all of society is unfolding
>>> on a regular cyclic basis. Specifically, this cycle repeats itself
>>> every four generations (80 to 90 years) or so. They further contend
>>> that each of the four generations within each cycle has a very
>>> distinct personality. These personality types repeat, revealing
>>> apparent social similarities from one cycle to the next. S&H, in their
>>> books, use the United States as an example and trace several cycles of
>>> American Society from this perspective. While I don't believe it is a
>>> mathematically precise discipline, I think it is a fascinating concept
>>> and it may have real potential in helping to understand the tides of
>>> history.
>>
>> Maury,
>>
>> With people's births being spaced pretty equally around the calendar and
>> from year to year, how does he define the borders of a social generation?
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> I think that what you described is a cyclic cusp catastrophe.
>>
>> Jerry
>> --
>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
>
> Hi Jerry,
> As I remember, he does it by generations. By their theory, it takes
> about 4 generations to complete a cycle, and that amounts to about 80
> to 90 years. I can see some of their conclusions by looking at my
> mothers' generation (depression era), my generation (post war era), my
> daughters' generation, and the current "young" people. Sort of
> collaspe of the economy/system causing frugality, then reaping better
> "rewards", followed by selfish disregard, then collaspe of the economy/
> system, or something like that.
>
> That's about all I got out of the very little I heard during an
> interview with one of the authors.

Maury,

How does he decide when one generation leaves off and the next begins? I 
remember my father home out of work during the Depression  (he washed my 
diapers) and I remember WWII as it progressed, but I was only 13 when it 
ended. My "generation", if you call it that was of age to fight the 
Korean War (But I was never drafted and I didn't enlist), so what 
generation does that make me?

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On 11/9/2011 6:54 PM, Phil Martel wrote:
>
>
> "Fred Marshall" wrote in message
> news:6jBuq.30284$Dk.22940@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
>
> I wish I could explain this better .. so that's why I'm looking.
>
> Years ago I read an article, I think in Scientific American, that dealt
> with ... what I would now call something like psychological states of
> societies.
>
> There was a "state surface" that looked like a split washer.
> The idea, as I remember it, was that a location on the washer was a
> state and that the "system" (society or whatever..) could drive the
> state to higher and higher levels only to reach a precipice (the split
> in the washer) and tumble to the lowest level.
>
> Any references, recollections?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fred
>
> Catastrophe theory...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory
>
> Best wishes,
>
>

Phil and Maury .. thanks!  That was it.

Zeeman published the article in Sci. Am. in 1976.

Fred