robert bristow-johnson wrote:> On 1/6/12 12:05 AM, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > >> A professor could see immediately what is each student worth. An open >> book, a computer or internet won't deceive the examiner. If they allow >> for reasonable amount of subjectivism in grading, that internet practice >> wouldn't change anything. > > > Vlad, how much subjective evaluation would be allowed. specifically, if > the answer contains all the elements or nearly all the elements in it be > be correct, including the brief two or three-word syntax between > equations (that anyone could plausibly author), then if it smells > strongly to the examiner that this guy lifted his answer from the > internet, how much can the examiner affect the grade?An examiner could ask a clarifying question or two. If student has no clue, this fact comes to the surface immediately.> all of it?: some student answers the question 99% correctly and gets > zip because the examiner subjectively concluded that the student > plagerized it?In my days at school, the exams were personal, there was no "multiple choice" questions.> i think that for a diploma that is meant to be a credential (i think > "credential" and "credibility" come from the same root word), there > *has* to be some examination(s) where the subjects being examined can > not easily cheat.Does this mean some government sets up a talmud that everybody is supposed to learn by heart ?> it means proctored exams where there are monitored > limits of access to interactive information. for regular college class > exams, i've always thought that a two-part exam, the first is > closed-everything (no open books, no calculator, no lap-top) to quiz on > concepts, the second part with practical problems would be open book, > open notes, and calculator (or internet-disabled laptop, perhaps you > would allow MATLAB/Octave to be used).This is similar to what we had. First, written test. Then, personal exam. It was allowed to use textbooks at some exams, it wasn't at the others. It didn't really change anything.>ever see the movie The Emperor's Club?Is it worth watching?
Internet access during exams
Started by ●January 5, 2012
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800 (PST), Rune Allnor <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:>Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer >questions and provide other help here: > >The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test >examinations where students have access to internet: > >http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html > >(Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will >pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on >this lunacy.) > >As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there >might pop up questions from students who need answers >not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea >is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of >the world, so beware; the answers you give here might >be what get your next colleague his or her diploma... > >RuneHi Rune, it seems like the Norwegian education system is run by idiots, but I bet it's still not as bad as the self-destructive lunatics in America. Here in the states we have a government organization called the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), an outrageously crazy organization that has far too much influence over American business. Those harebrained EEOC fools have issued a "letter" warning American businesses that it might someday be illegal for a business to require that job applicants have a high school diploma!! I'm not making this up. (Why are white cultures so suicidal????) If you don't believe me, see the following: http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/10409-eeoc-to-employers-requiring-hs-diploma-may-violate-disabilities-act [-Rick-]
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On Jan 5, 10:07�pm, "steveu" <steveu@n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> wrote:> simply asking some guy on the Internet for > direct answers to direct question.I suppose it depends on whom you ask, and if you "shoot an arrow into the air", the response might be quite interesting. For example, on another site dsp.stackexchange.com (see http://dsp.stackexchange.com/a/1024/235 ) a student asked for the magnitude of the frequency response of a system with transfer function H(s) = s/[(s+1)(s+2)]. There was only one answer to the question, which the student happily accepted, and this answer said, in effect, "replace s by jw and compute the magnitude" (so far so good) and then went on to give the *magnitude* of H(jw) as 20 log_10 sqrt[ -w^2/((2 - w^2)^2 - (3w)^2)] = 20 log_10 sqrt[-w^2/(4 - 5w^2 + w^4)] !! (Yes, negative sign inside the square root, denominator equal to 0 at w=1 or w=2). Incidentally, only 2 people reading that site expressed an opinion that there was something wrong about the answer (by voting against it but not saying anything else); the rest either didn't read the question and answer or were quite happy with the answer too. So, be careful what you ask for.... Dilip Sarwate
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
>On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800 (PST), Rune Allnor ><allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote: > >>Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer >>questions and provide other help here: >> >>The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test >>examinations where students have access to internet: >> >>http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html >> >>(Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will >>pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on >>this lunacy.) >> >>As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there >>might pop up questions from students who need answers >>not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea >>is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of >>the world, so beware; the answers you give here might >>be what get your next colleague his or her diploma... >> >>Rune > >Hi Rune, > it seems like the Norwegian education system is run >by idiots, but I bet it's still not as bad as the >self-destructive lunatics in America. Here in the >states we have a government organization called the >Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), >an outrageously crazy organization that has far too much >influence over American business. Those harebrained >EEOC fools have issued a "letter" warning American >businesses that it might someday be illegal for a >business to require that job applicants have a high >school diploma!! I'm not making this up. > >(Why are white cultures so suicidal????)What a strangely racist thing to say. Ask any middle aged Indian or Chinese about their education system and will get just as many sad stories about how their education system has been wrecked.>If you don't believe me, see the following: > >http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/10409-eeoc-to-employers-requiring-hs-diploma-may-violate-disabilities-act > >[-Rick-]Steve
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
"Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.com> wrote in message news:je5gq2$t9h$2@dont-email.me...> Rune Allnor wrote:Thanks to Rune for the heads-up. *snip*> Usenet is faaaaar too slow for that....Rune's message (which my newsreader indicates was posted at 5:40 PM yesterday my time) received two responses (at least on CSSM; I haven't checked if it received any that were posted solely to comp.dsp) within 40 minutes; posting a request for "help" at the very beginning of an exam and coming back to that question at the end is possible. I think with Rune's warning the gurus can be on the look out for posts that seem like exam questions. The CSSM gurus are pretty good about spotting homework questions; I'm guessing the comp.dsp gurus are as well. This will be similar. When we see one, we can alert the rest of the community with a message like "This sounds like an exam question, so I'm not going to answer now; come back in six hours or so." as Eric suggested. In addition, using Usenet for cheating by asking the exam question will generally leave a fairly indelible trace with at least Google Groups (and in the case of CSSM the MATLAB Central newsreader) and other sites archiving posts for posterity. [Yes, I know there are ways around this, but those aren't foolproof either.] Finally, I'm curious to hear from Danish educators; the Google Translate translation (which is actually pretty good) of the article indicates that they've allowed this since 2008. Has cheating via Usenet newsgroups been a big problem for your exams since then? -- Steve Lord slord@mathworks.com To contact Technical Support use the Contact Us link on http://www.mathworks.com
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 05:59:29 -0800 (PST), dvsarwate <dvsarwate@yahoo.com> wrote:>On Jan 5, 10:07=A0pm, "steveu" <steveu@n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> wrote: > >> simply asking some guy on the Internet for >> direct answers to direct question. > >I suppose it depends on whom you ask, and if >you "shoot an arrow into the air", the response >might be quite interesting. For example, on >another site dsp.stackexchange.com (see >http://dsp.stackexchange.com/a/1024/235 ) > a student asked for the magnitude of the >frequency response of a system with transfer >function H(s) =3D s/[(s+1)(s+2)]. There was >only one answer to the question, which the >student happily accepted, and this answer >said, in effect, "replace s by jw and compute >the magnitude" (so far so good) and then >went on to give the *magnitude* of H(jw) as > >20 log_10 sqrt[ -w^2/((2 - w^2)^2 - (3w)^2)] > >=3D 20 log_10 sqrt[-w^2/(4 - 5w^2 + w^4)] !! > >(Yes, negative sign inside the square root, >denominator equal to 0 at w=3D1 or w=3D2). >Incidentally, only 2 people reading that site >expressed an opinion that there was something >wrong about the answer (by voting against it >but not saying anything else); the rest either >didn't read the question and answer or were >quite happy with the answer too. > >So, be careful what you ask for.... > >Dilip SarwateWhen it comes to free advice on the internet, sometimes you get what you pay for. ;) Eric Jacobsen Anchor Hill Communications www.anchorhill.com
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On Jan 5, 5:40�pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer > questions and provide other help here: > > The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test > examinations where students have access to internet: > > http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internet... > > (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will > pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on > this lunacy.) > > As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there > might pop up questions from students who need answers > not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea > is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of > the world, so beware; the answers you give here might > be what get your next colleague his or her diploma... > > RuneRune, et al, As one who teaches 1st year physics, I've already seen a lot of modes of cheating. The kids will scan every prior question from the homework, quizes and tests and what I worked out on the board (they take pics with their camera phones) and have them in their smart phones. This is certainly way more advanced for of cheating than writing stuff on their wrists and feigning a need to go to the restroom where they have strategically placed papers in the bathroom trash can. And using cellphone jammers is illegal, so we can't use that to block access to the internet. Even prisons can't get permission to jam cellphones. I find it kind of fun devising questions to force them to actually think as opposed to regurgitating results. Sometimes when I make up questions, I key it into google and adjust my wording so google's results won't take you straight to the answer. I recall one time teaching some kids scientific notation and they lazily would put everything into their calculators and never learn how to do the actual calculations. A few problems with 4 digit exponents (too big for their TI-83 calculators) taught them what they really needed to learn. Today we have a problem (certainly here in the US - can't much speak for elsewhere) where education is structured to spoon feed the students and they end up not knowing how to do things for themselves - it is really sad. I find it fun to read my student's evaluations of me as they run the typical gamut. One student strongly complained of my grading the homework on accuracy! And sadly many of the comments aren't even grammatically correct and yet these students are usually liberal arts majors. Clay
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 08:26:14 -0800 (PST), Clay <clay@claysturner.com> wrote:>On Jan 5, 5:40=A0pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote: >> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer >> questions and provide other help here: >> >> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test >> examinations where students have access to internet: >> >> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internet... >> >> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will >> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on >> this lunacy.) >> >> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there >> might pop up questions from students who need answers >> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea >> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of >> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might >> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma... >> >> Rune > >Rune, et al, > >As one who teaches 1st year physics, I've already seen a lot of modes >of cheating. The kids will scan every prior question from the >homework, quizes and tests and what I worked out on the board (they >take pics with their camera phones) and have them in their smart >phones. This is certainly way more advanced for of cheating than >writing stuff on their wrists and feigning a need to go to the >restroom where they have strategically placed papers in the bathroom >trash can. And using cellphone jammers is illegal, so we can't use >that to block access to the internet. Even prisons can't get >permission to jam cellphones. > >I find it kind of fun devising questions to force them to actually >think as opposed to regurgitating results. Sometimes when I make up >questions, I key it into google and adjust my wording so google's >results won't take you straight to the answer. > >I recall one time teaching some kids scientific notation and they >lazily would put everything into their calculators and never learn how >to do the actual calculations. A few problems with 4 digit exponents >(too big for their TI-83 calculators) taught them what they really >needed to learn. > >Today we have a problem (certainly here in the US - can't much speak >for elsewhere) where education is structured to spoon feed the >students and they end up not knowing how to do things for themselves - >it is really sad. > >I find it fun to read my student's evaluations of me as they run the >typical gamut. One student strongly complained of my grading the >homework on accuracy! And sadly many of the comments aren't even >grammatically correct and yet these students are usually liberal arts >majors. > >ClaySomebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it: http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg Eric Jacobsen Anchor Hill Communications www.anchorhill.com
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On 6 Jan, 17:18, eric.jacob...@ieee.org (Eric Jacobsen) wrote:> When it comes to free advice on the internet, sometimes you get what > you pay for. � ;)That goes everywhere! I joined one of those 'professional societies' where members get free legal help, if disputes occur with the emploier over e.g. emploiment contracts. My (then) emploier had included a lause in my contract where they (the emploier) imposed restricitions that are not otherwise regulated by laws etc, on me for some time after termination of the emploiment: - Restrictions on who or what companies I could join after termination of emploiment. - Preventing me from encouraging colleagues to leave the emploier in question. - Preventing me from influencing suppliers or clients of the emploier in question. These kinds of things aren't controversial as such, but my contract stated that if the clause is effectuated, I am entiteled to economical compensation for the period the clause is considered effective (which is specified in the contract). Now the problem: My previous emploier behave as if they are entitled to impose limitations on me as per the clause, but *without* paying the specified compensation. So I conculted the - free - legal advisors through this professional society, who at first lined up with my previous emploiers: That's what I had to expect. But after lengthy discussions I finally got the consultant to see things from my angle: Unless I am payed the compensation up front, I am under no obligations to respect that clause of the contract; I can do what I want, talk to who I want, say what I want, as long as I respect what is regulated by the legal system. So I ended up educating a lawyer in his own field. The same thing happened during my discussions with the lawyers with my previous emploiers'; I ended up explaining to them the consequences of the clause. When you get free help, you actually get what you pay for. Rune
Reply by ●January 6, 20122012-01-06
On 1/5/2012 5:40 PM, Rune Allnor wrote:> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer > questions and provide other help here: > > The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test > examinations where students have access to internet: > > http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html > > (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will > pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on > this lunacy.) > > As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there > might pop up questions from students who need answers > not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea > is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of > the world, so beware; the answers you give here might > be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...I have a small and simple web site on which I have a few recipes and self-aggrandizing rants. It is now pretty much in disrepair. You can the public stuff at http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/ , but there's a lot you can't see. http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/gathering.jpg is one example of that. It would be easy for me to post pages of facts and formulas if I had an exam that allowed web access. (So how do you like mt vulture pictures? One was taken with http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/photoadapter.htm.) Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
