Lyons needs your advice regarding the IEEE

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:20:39 +1100, Erik de Castro Lopo
<erikd@mega-nerd.com> wrote:

>stan wrote:
>
>> Actually that seems backwards to me. I don't think there's an engineer
>> alive who thinks $35 makes any sense. The MBA's though seems to push
>> the envelope of "what the market will bear".
>> 
>> FWIW, it seems $35 is a pretty standard rate for papers for
>> NON-members of some organizations. I haven't checked - what do we
>> charge non-members?
>
>That $35 is a figure arrived at when someone had to find the paper
>in a library of journals, photocopy it and then stuff it in an envelope.
>For that service, $35 seems pretty fair to me.
>
>However, for internet delivery of a document from a HTTP server,
>$35 is extortionate. All of the academic publishers need to 
>revise their fees.
>
>Erik
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Erik de Castro Lopo
>http://www.mega-nerd.com/

Here's what I can sort out from a few quick tests and a look at some
of the IEEE sites:

As an IEEE member I can:

- buy a single copy of a paper in a journal other than within my
subcription areas for $10

- Get three additional article downloads every month, plus rollover
unused downloads for 12 months, for only US$15 per month 

- Get 25 article downloads for US$35 per month. 

From here:
http://www.ieee.org/publications_standards/publications/subscriptions/prod/mdl/mdl_overview.html

That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy deals.
I think the typical person does research and occassionally comes
across a paper they need.   When or how often this happens, or how
many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of the
rate plans above (IMHO).   I think $10 is still too much for a
download (especially given the points made by others here, that one
doesn't get a chance to preview it, there's no cost burden on
generating the content, etc., etc.).

The $15/month plan is an additional $180/year on top of the already
expensive costs to be an IEEE member, and the $35/month plan is
$420/year!  That's a pretty steep price for individuals to pay to be
able to do occasional personal research in the library of an
organization to which they're already paying a substantial membership
fee.


Eric Jacobsen
Anchor Hill Communications
www.anchorhill.com

On Jan 13, 12:24�am, eric.jacob...@ieee.org (Eric Jacobsen) wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:20:39 +1100, Erik de Castro Lopo
>
>
>
>
>
> <er...@mega-nerd.com> wrote:
> >stan wrote:
>
> >> Actually that seems backwards to me. I don't think there's an engineer
> >> alive who thinks $35 makes any sense. The MBA's though seems to push
> >> the envelope of "what the market will bear".
>
> >> FWIW, it seems $35 is a pretty standard rate for papers for
> >> NON-members of some organizations. I haven't checked - what do we
> >> charge non-members?
>
> >That $35 is a figure arrived at when someone had to find the paper
> >in a library of journals, photocopy it and then stuff it in an envelope.
> >For that service, $35 seems pretty fair to me.
>
> >However, for internet delivery of a document from a HTTP server,
> >$35 is extortionate. All of the academic publishers need to
> >revise their fees.
>
> >Erik
> >--
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Erik de Castro Lopo
> >http://www.mega-nerd.com/
>
> Here's what I can sort out from a few quick tests and a look at some
> of the IEEE sites:
>
> As an IEEE member I can:
>
> - buy a single copy of a paper in a journal other than within my
> subcription areas for $10
>
> - Get three additional article downloads every month, plus rollover
> unused downloads for 12 months, for only US$15 per month
>
> - Get 25 article downloads for US$35 per month.
>
> From here:http://www.ieee.org/publications_standards/publications/subscriptions...
>
> That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy deals.
> I think the typical person does research and occassionally comes
> across a paper they need. &#4294967295; When or how often this happens, or how
> many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of the
> rate plans above (IMHO). &#4294967295; I think $10 is still too much for a
> download (especially given the points made by others here, that one
> doesn't get a chance to preview it, there's no cost burden on
> generating the content, etc., etc.).
>
> The $15/month plan is an additional $180/year on top of the already
> expensive costs to be an IEEE member, and the $35/month plan is
> $420/year! &#4294967295;That's a pretty steep price for individuals to pay to be
> able to do occasional personal research in the library of an
> organization to which they're already paying a substantial membership
> fee.
>
> Eric Jacobsen
> Anchor Hill Communicationswww.anchorhill.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Now you know why I teach part time (besides actually enjoying it), I
get free library access and not to just my university's library, but
to all of them within the state's university system. The value I put
on that is tremendous.

Clay

Eric Jacobsen wrote:
<snip >
> That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy deals.
> I think the typical person does research and occassionally comes
> across a paper they need.   When or how often this happens, or how
> many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of the
> rate plans above (IMHO).   I think $10 is still too much for a
> download (especially given the points made by others here, that one
> doesn't get a chance to preview it, there's no cost burden on
> generating the content, etc., etc.).
>
> The $15/month plan is an additional $180/year on top of the already
> expensive costs to be an IEEE member, and the $35/month plan is
> $420/year!  That's a pretty steep price for individuals to pay to be
> able to do occasional personal research in the library of an
> organization to which they're already paying a substantial membership
> fee.

Agree, those rates would be attractive IF I wasn't a member. As
I mentioned earlier, IEEE is more expensive and provides less than
any other professional organization I belong too and it's not a very
close race.

In article <4f0fbd19.291736424@www.eternal-september.org>, 
eric.jacobsen@ieee.org says...

>That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy 
deals.
>I think the typical person does research and occassionally 
comes
>across a paper they need.   When or how often this happens, or 
how
>many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of 
the
>rate plans above (IMHO).

If Google *really* wanted to do something cool, it would 
purchase unlimited-distribution rights to all of the pay-walled 
journal papers from various disciplines and make them free for 
downloading. I'm sure it could afford to do so and it would be 
a exceedingly socially-useful thing to do.

On 1/18/2012 5:11 PM, Robert Orban wrote:
> In article<4f0fbd19.291736424@www.eternal-september.org>,
> eric.jacobsen@ieee.org says...
>
>> That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy
> deals.
>> I think the typical person does research and occassionally
> comes
>> across a paper they need.   When or how often this happens, or
> how
>> many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of
> the
>> rate plans above (IMHO).
>
> If Google *really* wanted to do something cool, it would
> purchase unlimited-distribution rights to all of the pay-walled
> journal papers from various disciplines and make them free for
> downloading. I'm sure it could afford to do so and it would be
> a exceedingly socially-useful thing to do.
>

Also a drop in the bucket for the gummint .. as a "library" kind of 
thing on the web.  After all, most libraries are govt funded one way or 
another.

Fred

On Jan 18, 8:11 pm, Robert Orban <spambucket2...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <4f0fbd19.291736...@www.eternal-september.org>,
> eric.jacob...@ieee.org says...
>
>
>
> >That's better than $35/paper, but I think they're still crappy
> deals.
> >I think the typical person does research and occassionally
> comes
> >across a paper they need.   When or how often this happens, or
> how
> >many papers will be needed, is sporadic and doesn't fit any of
> the
> >rate plans above (IMHO).
>
> If Google *really* wanted to do something cool, it would
> purchase unlimited-distribution rights to all of the pay-walled
> journal papers from various disciplines and make them free for
> downloading. I'm sure it could afford to do so and it would be
> a exceedingly socially-useful thing to do.

You mean like what a college library does with paper journals?  Yes,
that is a good idea.  I don't see how the IEEE publication plan works
at all.  I guess there are a lot of companies out there that don't
mind spending the bucks.

I remember having a job with a company who had a subscription to IEEE
for standards.  They licensed each document to a single PC.  I have no
idea what would happen if IT changed my computer.  I would find a way
to break the keying.  Most copyright protection is a major PITA and I
won't live with it, DMCA be dammed!

Rick