The harder the work the less it's paid?

First, by harder I mean more knowledge required. Having cleared that up 
it seems to me that the harder the work the less it's paid. 

For instance firmware developers which spend years writing code that fits 
on the tiniest of chips seem (to me) to get paid much less than say 
a .NET developer who can work for some large corporation and do not easy 
but I'd say definitely easier things.

It also seems that high level stuff that can reach a mass of people and 
be put together of already built units is more rewarded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly 
paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would 
like.

But seems to me that engineers who work on the edge of engineering and 
commerce get the best deal. I mean those engineers who can use a tool but 
are not interested in the minute details of the tool itself.

Last but not least - I'm still a student (although I've worked in 3 
engineering companies) so this view can be total cr@p :).

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:48:07 +0000, Benjamin S. wrote:

> First, by harder I mean more knowledge required. Having cleared that up
> it seems to me that the harder the work the less it's paid.
> 
> For instance firmware developers which spend years writing code that
> fits on the tiniest of chips seem (to me) to get paid much less than say
> a .NET developer who can work for some large corporation and do not easy
> but I'd say definitely easier things.
> 
> It also seems that high level stuff that can reach a mass of people and
> be put together of already built units is more rewarded.

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         VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly
> paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would
> like.
> 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> But seems to me that engineers who work on the edge of engineering and
> commerce get the best deal. I mean those engineers who can use a tool
> but are not interested in the minute details of the tool itself.
> 
> Last but not least - I'm still a student (although I've worked in 3
> engineering companies) so this view can be total cr@p :).

Your question answers itself: working on bleeding edge stuff is more fun; 
working on .NET applications is, by itself, about as interesting as 
shoveling horse shit all day (if more comfortable and often less smelly).

Supply, demand, yada yada.

You can get highly paid doing the hard fun stuff -- but you have to work 
the system to make it happen, and even then you're better off taking your 
people and technical skills and going into management.

-- 
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Hi Benjamin,

On 3/6/2012 12:48 PM, Benjamin S. wrote:

> Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly
> paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would
> like.

IME, people who like (or *enjoy*) their work tend to be happier
in life.  While I am not thrilled with office politics, meetings,
deadlines, etc., I *can* say that I enjoy sitting down to "work"
each day (self-employed I tend to work 7 days a week).  I have
colleagues who make considerably more than I do (at times) who
are perpetually "irritable" and look for ways to *avoid* their
"work".

A friend used to manage a telephone "central office".  As a kid,
I went for a tour of the place (when things were still crossbar
driven).  There was a room there that consisted of nothing but
wire termination points.  *Countless* wires each with specific,
documented end points.

The people who worked in this room made outrageous wages (for
that time).  But, it was a dreary job -- all you did EVERY DAY
boiled down to "connect wire 2378876 to wire 6283474".  Over
and over and over again.  Kinda hard to drag yourself out of bed
in the morning knowing that this is what your day would entail!

I think the same sort of "routine" activity is what leads to
postal workers "flipping out" with some regularity.

You can earn money lots of ways.  But, people are buying slices
of your *life* -- something that is finite and non-renewable.
*You* have to decide what *yours* is worth (to *you*, not your
employer/client!)

Benjamin S. wrote:
> First, by harder I mean more knowledge required. Having cleared that up
> it seems to me that the harder the work the less it's paid.
>
> For instance firmware developers which spend years writing code that fits
> on the tiniest of chips seem (to me) to get paid much less than say
> a .NET developer who can work for some large corporation and do not easy
> but I'd say definitely easier things.
>
> It also seems that high level stuff that can reach a mass of people and
> be put together of already built units is more rewarded.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly
> paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would
> like.
>
> But seems to me that engineers who work on the edge of engineering and
> commerce get the best deal. I mean those engineers who can use a tool but
> are not interested in the minute details of the tool itself.
>
> Last but not least - I'm still a student (although I've worked in 3
> engineering companies) so this view can be total cr@p :).


In the '90s, you took a pay cut relative to realtime work to
"do Windows" but there were more jobs for Windows programmers
and there was consulting in it.

SFAIK, that hasn't changed, based on contract ads I have seen since.
I'd say follow your bliss; it's not worth a couple bucks an hour
if Windows programming drives you nuts.


--
Les Cargill

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), "Benjamin S."
<niacin89@yahoo.com> wrote:

>First, by harder I mean more knowledge required. Having cleared that up 
>it seems to me that the harder the work the less it's paid. 
>
>For instance firmware developers which spend years writing code that fits 
>on the tiniest of chips seem (to me) to get paid much less than say 
>a .NET developer who can work for some large corporation and do not easy 
>but I'd say definitely easier things.
>
>It also seems that high level stuff that can reach a mass of people and 
>be put together of already built units is more rewarded.
>
>Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly 
>paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would 
>like.
>
>But seems to me that engineers who work on the edge of engineering and 
>commerce get the best deal. I mean those engineers who can use a tool but 
>are not interested in the minute details of the tool itself.
>
>Last but not least - I'm still a student (although I've worked in 3 
>engineering companies) so this view can be total cr@p :).

Hello Benjamin,
   Try to do the work that you like doing.
Sure, there's always ways of makin' more money 
but money rarely makes people happy.

A wealthy man once traveled on vacation to Mexico.  
He rented a small fishing boat and went with the 
boat's poor owner out on the ocean to fish.
The wealthy man had a wonderful time fishing.  
He asked the boat owner, "What do you do at the 
end of the day?  The poor man said he played with 
his grandchildren and then had a beer relaxing with 
his friends.  

At the end of the day, the wealthy man said to 
the boat owner, "You know, if you borrowed money you 
could buy more boats, hire people to take tourists 
fishing, and turn your little business into a 
big business.  If you work really hard for years, 
and are successful,you can sell your business 
to someone and make a lot of money.  Then the poor 
boat owner said, "If I  make a lot of money, then 
what do I do next?"  The wealthy man said, 
"Well, ...after you make a lot of money, then you'll 
have time to play with your grandchildren and 
have a beer relaxing with your friends."

[-Rick-]


  

   

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:23:23 -0700, Don Y wrote:

> You can earn money lots of ways.  But, people are buying slices of your
> *life* -- something that is finite and non-renewable. *You* have to
> decide what *yours* is worth (to *you*, not your employer/client!)

This is the exact same thought that visits my mind when I think about 
this and TBH when I worked for a large corporation (where everyone's 
objective was - make more money) I thought people were victims of the 
system. I thought they had this idea implanted in their heads and they 
didn't even think whether that's what they want or suits them.

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:36:25 -0800, Rick Lyons wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), "Benjamin S."
> <niacin89@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>First, by harder I mean more knowledge required. Having cleared that up
>>it seems to me that the harder the work the less it's paid.
>>
>>For instance firmware developers which spend years writing code that
>>fits on the tiniest of chips seem (to me) to get paid much less than say
>>a .NET developer who can work for some large corporation and do not easy
>>but I'd say definitely easier things.
>>
>>It also seems that high level stuff that can reach a mass of people and
>>be put together of already built units is more rewarded.
>>
>>Don't get me wrong, I'm really not after money. I turned down a highly
>>paid job just last year and decided to go and look for one which I would
>>like.
>>
>>But seems to me that engineers who work on the edge of engineering and
>>commerce get the best deal. I mean those engineers who can use a tool
>>but are not interested in the minute details of the tool itself.
>>
>>Last but not least - I'm still a student (although I've worked in 3
>>engineering companies) so this view can be total cr@p :).
> 
> Hello Benjamin,
>    Try to do the work that you like doing.
> Sure, there's always ways of makin' more money but money rarely makes
> people happy.
> 
> A wealthy man once traveled on vacation to Mexico. He rented a small
> fishing boat and went with the boat's poor owner out on the ocean to
> fish. The wealthy man had a wonderful time fishing. He asked the boat
> owner, "What do you do at the end of the day?  The poor man said he
> played with his grandchildren and then had a beer relaxing with his
> friends.
> 
> At the end of the day, the wealthy man said to the boat owner, "You
> know, if you borrowed money you could buy more boats, hire people to
> take tourists fishing, and turn your little business into a big
> business.  If you work really hard for years, and are successful,you can
> sell your business to someone and make a lot of money.  Then the poor
> boat owner said, "If I  make a lot of money, then what do I do next?" 
> The wealthy man said, "Well, ...after you make a lot of money, then
> you'll have time to play with your grandchildren and have a beer
> relaxing with your friends."
> 
> [-Rick-]

Hi Rick,

Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, I don't think this lifestyle is 
possible in the UK where people work like ants all life to buy a matchbox 
sized house. Then you can't even sell it cause you have to pay 100 taxes. 
Anyway, the issue gets complicated :).

But I agree - enjoying what you're doing is N1. After all money is 
supposed to be used to bring you joy. Usually, serious people spend 50% 
of their day time on the job (probably even more) so spending what's 
effectively your life on doing something you hate is not a good way to 
spend your days. My last placement was doing .NET and it was such BS - no 
challenge what-so-ever. Coding workflows all day.

Hi Benjamin,

On 3/7/2012 7:12 AM, Benjamin S. wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:23:23 -0700, Don Y wrote:
>
>> You can earn money lots of ways.  But, people are buying slices of your
>> *life* -- something that is finite and non-renewable. *You* have to
>> decide what *yours* is worth (to *you*, not your employer/client!)
>
> This is the exact same thought that visits my mind when I think about
> this and TBH when I worked for a large corporation (where everyone's
> objective was - make more money) I thought people were victims of the

"Money" isn't always the goal.  Many people want "security".
Others might be wanting to avoid "responsibility" (let someone
else *think* for me).  Still others might just be lacking in
self-confidence, etc.

> system. I thought they had this idea implanted in their heads and they
> didn't even think whether that's what they want or suits them.

After "sleeping", you spend the greatest portion of your life
*working*.  IMO, sleeping isn't "that bad"... I've never found
myself cursing because of all the *sleeping* I've "had to do"
(though there are times when I wish I could get by with less!).
OTOH, I see many people who dread Mondays -- and think there
is something *divine* about Fridays.

Ask yourself how many folks' "last words" (death bed) are:
"I should have WORKED more..."  Life is just too short NOT
to do something you relish!

As a computer tech I used to work for a computer store/repair center
where I made good money including profit sharing bonus of $10-18,000 a
year.

But all my time was devoted to work.  If I was not working, I was
learn how to do my job better (manuals, courses, etc).

While I talked about going places, I went nowhere.

Then I got laid off.

I worked at Arby's in the morning opening the kitchen.  Suddenly, I
was free of any work at noon.  I could read the books I wanted to
read, I could write the code I wanted to write.

I started going on cruises, I just finish my 6th cruise last week
Saturday.  Two weeks in the Caribbean.

My friend and I are now discussing Cuba vs The Rockies vs The Bay of
Fundy vs whatever.



I notice that a lot of expenses people have are the things they THINK
they need.  Cut out the huge TVs, Cable, latest model car and it is
surprising how little money it takes to live.  Plan ahead, book trips
years in advance to get the discounts, buy equipment that lasts so you
don't need to replace/upgrade every year and you will find out there
is a good life to live even without tons of money.

PS. And pay off your bills first. Aside from taxes, I own nothing on
my cabin up north, my truck, my house or my condo (condos are going
cheap in Florida right now).  Cancel all but one of my credit cards,
and remove overdraft from my debit cards - result I own no-one money
except for government taxes.

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:15:35 -0800, Earl_Colby_Pottinger wrote:

> As a computer tech I used to work for a computer store/repair center
> where I made good money including profit sharing bonus of $10-18,000 a
> year.
> 
> But all my time was devoted to work.  If I was not working, I was learn
> how to do my job better (manuals, courses, etc).
> 
> While I talked about going places, I went nowhere.
> 
> Then I got laid off.
> 
> I worked at Arby's in the morning opening the kitchen.  Suddenly, I was
> free of any work at noon.  I could read the books I wanted to read, I
> could write the code I wanted to write.
> 
> I started going on cruises, I just finish my 6th cruise last week
> Saturday.  Two weeks in the Caribbean.
> 
> My friend and I are now discussing Cuba vs The Rockies vs The Bay of
> Fundy vs whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of expenses people have are the things they THINK
> they need.  Cut out the huge TVs, Cable, latest model car and it is
> surprising how little money it takes to live.  Plan ahead, book trips
> years in advance to get the discounts, buy equipment that lasts so you
> don't need to replace/upgrade every year and you will find out there is
> a good life to live even without tons of money.
> 
> PS. And pay off your bills first. Aside from taxes, I own nothing on my
> cabin up north, my truck, my house or my condo (condos are going cheap
> in Florida right now).  Cancel all but one of my credit cards, and
> remove overdraft from my debit cards - result I own no-one money except
> for government taxes.

That's loosely coupled with the original question and I also think that 
you are forgetting why people want money:

		Money = Power

But forget about the money=power BS - having the money to not have to 
book years in advance is what it really is - convenience and enjoying 
life more. You go from one extreme to the other but in terms of living 
you really haven't changed the situation much. I'm not Oprah but you seem 
to have had your life controlled by your work. Now it's controlled by 
trying to get cheaper deals.

What I meant in my questions is that a person who creates a website that 
does some stupid BS job (which everyone can do with a piece of paper - 
e.g. a team scheduler) seem to be getting millions of revenue. It doesn't 
take much to create that kind of site - they are just making use of the 
fact that new technology is making it really easy.