FPGA's - the future

On Apr 20, 11:10=A0am, Don Y <t...@isnotme.com> wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 3:26 PM, mnentwig wrote:
>
> >>> Suppose we need a modem - just download it
>
> > but where can I download a bigger power supply...
> > On a cellphone ASIC, we need a milliamp at one-point-something volts fo=
r
> > typical DSP jobs.
> > On an FPGA, you need a cooling fan...
>
> Yup. =A0Flexibility comes at a cost!
>

As Babbage once said whilst adding another gear to his machine...

the process has alread began.

On 4/19/2012 9:02 PM, HardySpicer wrote:
> On Apr 20, 11:10 am, Don Y<t...@isnotme.com>  wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 3:26 PM, mnentwig wrote:
>>
>>>>> Suppose we need a modem - just download it
>>
>>> but where can I download a bigger power supply...
>>> On a cellphone ASIC, we need a milliamp at one-point-something volts for
>>> typical DSP jobs.
>>> On an FPGA, you need a cooling fan...
>>
>> Yup.  Flexibility comes at a cost!
>
> As Babbage once said whilst adding another gear to his machine...
> the process has alread began.

And, as with all software, the Difference Engine was never *finished*!

(you'd would think that folks would have made this observation
100 years ago...  :> )

BTW, if buying an FPGA board for the first time, it would be a good idea to
double-check the licensing terms of the vendor.
 
When the "FPGA development kit" includes a "complete design suite DVD",
this doesn't mean you get a license to actually *use* the software. 
The list price for the license is then ~$USD 3k. Per year.

HardySpicer wrote:
> I am wondering if any ofyou share my vision of an FPGA (or equivalent)
> type future. By this I mean programmable hardware. Your PC will be
> nothing but a massive array of gates on which you download your own
> custom processor. You use high level languages which compiles direct
> to silicon and runs 100 times faster than ordinary software.
> A silicon compiler, full floating point. Suppose we need a modem -
> just download it. A dual processor - no problem, just download it.

It's already a reality. Sort of. Just plug an appropriate board in an 
available PCIe slot. Use the PC for general computing, and build your 
special world in the other space.

The problem for real world has always been getting the data into and out of 
the FPGA. The problems are made worse by locking it up in the confines of an 
electrically noisy PC. If you're doing video, you need a mezzanine card for 
HDMI. Networking, again a mezzanine card for the QSFP+. SDR and sensor 
arrays need ADC and DAC. You could push it through the PC first and then 
pull it back out, but ... Even your modem needs an RJ11 jack to work. VoIP 
modem command could work already without additioanl hardware. You just need 
a reason for someone to set up a BBS to give you someplace to call. Now, 
just where did I put that list of Hayes AT command strings?

I think I lack the imagination to put this to good use. Taking a nostalgic 
stroll by emulating Q*bert and other arcade console games in modern silicon 
might be fun, but lacks personal meaning aside from the doing. Tinkering 
with embedded systems on a board locked in a case subservient to a 3 GHz 
multi-core just seems a bit too quaint. Or lame.

When it comes right down to it, I can't think of anything useful an average 
person might want with a configurable logic world. But, believing for the 
moment that "build it and they will come", it wouldn't take much to build a 
supproting infrastructure of drivers and development toolchains that even 
Grandmother can use. Or would it? I think to myself often these days that 
the Xilinx tools can be great one day if they ever found time to finish it.

Oh! There's your answer. Put the Java Virtual Machine in the FPGA and I'll 
thank you for it. (Even though doing so immediately defeats the purpose of 
both. Dedicating programmable logic to the sole task of running acceptably a 
language whose only reason for existing is portability and hardware 
independence seems just too crazy to not have meaning. But then, I would 
want it on real silicon, a whole Java planet all for itself using the PC 
only for I/O and mass storage. And there goes all meaning for your FPGA 
world again.)

On May 2, 8:45&#4294967295;pm, "MikeWhy" <boat042-nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> HardySpicer wrote:
> > I am wondering if any ofyou share my vision of an FPGA (or equivalent)
> > type future. By this I mean programmable hardware. Your PC will be
> > nothing but a massive array of gates on which you download your own
> > custom processor. You use high level languages which compiles direct
> > to silicon and runs 100 times faster than ordinary software.
> > A silicon compiler, full floating point. Suppose we need a modem -
> > just download it. A dual processor - no problem, just download it.
>
> It's already a reality. Sort of. Just plug an appropriate board in an
> available PCIe slot. Use the PC for general computing, and build your
> special world in the other space.
>
> The problem for real world has always been getting the data into and out of
> the FPGA. The problems are made worse by locking it up in the confines of an
> electrically noisy PC. If you're doing video, you need a mezzanine card for
> HDMI. Networking, again a mezzanine card for the QSFP+. SDR and sensor
> arrays need ADC and DAC. You could push it through the PC first and then
> pull it back out, but ... Even your modem needs an RJ11 jack to work. VoIP
> modem command could work already without additioanl hardware. You just need
> a reason for someone to set up a BBS to give you someplace to call. Now,
> just where did I put that list of Hayes AT command strings?
>
> I think I lack the imagination to put this to good use. Taking a nostalgic
> stroll by emulating Q*bert and other arcade console games in modern silicon
> might be fun, but lacks personal meaning aside from the doing. Tinkering
> with embedded systems on a board locked in a case subservient to a 3 GHz
> multi-core just seems a bit too quaint. Or lame.
>
> When it comes right down to it, I can't think of anything useful an average
> person might want with a configurable logic world. But, believing for the
> moment that "build it and they will come", it wouldn't take much to build a
> supproting infrastructure of drivers and development toolchains that even
> Grandmother can use. Or would it? I think to myself often these days that
> the Xilinx tools can be great one day if they ever found time to finish it.
>
> Oh! There's your answer. Put the Java Virtual Machine in the FPGA and I'll
> thank you for it. (Even though doing so immediately defeats the purpose of
> both. Dedicating programmable logic to the sole task of running acceptably a
> language whose only reason for existing is portability and hardware
> independence seems just too crazy to not have meaning. But then, I would
> want it on real silicon, a whole Java planet all for itself using the PC
> only for I/O and mass storage. And there goes all meaning for your FPGA
> world again.)

Have you heard of the National instruments compact Rio? Does it all
for you - at a cost.

Hardy

HardySpicer wrote:
> On May 2, 8:45 pm, "MikeWhy" <boat042-nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> HardySpicer wrote:
>>> I am wondering if any ofyou share my vision of an FPGA (or
>>> equivalent) type future. By this I mean programmable hardware. Your
>>> PC will be nothing but a massive array of gates on which you
>>> download your own custom processor. You use high level languages
>>> which compiles direct to silicon and runs 100 times faster than
>>> ordinary software. 
>>> A silicon compiler, full floating point. Suppose we need a modem -
>>> just download it. A dual processor - no problem, just download it.
>> 
>> It's already a reality. Sort of. Just plug an appropriate board in an
>> available PCIe slot. Use the PC for general computing, and build your
>> special world in the other space.
>> 
>> The problem for real world has always been getting the data into and
>> out of the FPGA. The problems are made worse by locking it up in the
>> confines of an electrically noisy PC. If you're doing video, you
>> need a mezzanine card for HDMI. Networking, again a mezzanine card
>> for the QSFP+. SDR and sensor arrays need ADC and DAC. You could
>> push it through the PC first and then pull it back out, but ... Even
>> your modem needs an RJ11 jack to work. VoIP modem command could work
>> already without additioanl hardware. You just need a reason for
>> someone to set up a BBS to give you someplace to call. Now, just
>> where did I put that list of Hayes AT command strings? 
>> 
>> I think I lack the imagination to put this to good use. Taking a
>> nostalgic stroll by emulating Q*bert and other arcade console games
>> in modern silicon might be fun, but lacks personal meaning aside
>> from the doing. Tinkering with embedded systems on a board locked in
>> a case subservient to a 3 GHz multi-core just seems a bit too
>> quaint. Or lame. 
>> 
>> When it comes right down to it, I can't think of anything useful an
>> average person might want with a configurable logic world. But,
>> believing for the moment that "build it and they will come", it
>> wouldn't take much to build a supproting infrastructure of drivers
>> and development toolchains that even Grandmother can use. Or would
>> it? I think to myself often these days that the Xilinx tools can be
>> great one day if they ever found time to finish it. 
>> 
>> Oh! There's your answer. Put the Java Virtual Machine in the FPGA
>> and I'll thank you for it. (Even though doing so immediately defeats
>> the purpose of both. Dedicating programmable logic to the sole task
>> of running acceptably a language whose only reason for existing is
>> portability and hardware independence seems just too crazy to not
>> have meaning. But then, I would want it on real silicon, a whole
>> Java planet all for itself using the PC only for I/O and mass
>> storage. And there goes all meaning for your FPGA world again.)
> 
> Have you heard of the National instruments compact Rio? Does it all
> for you - at a cost.

Go big or go home. ;) I had in mind something more like this:
 
http://hitechglobal.com/Boards/Virtex6_PCIExpress_Board.htm
 
or even this:
 
 http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/AES-S6MB-LX9.htm
 
 Fire hose; sippy straw. Choices.

Either would be great as stocking stuffers.

MikeWhy wrote:
> HardySpicer wrote:
>> On May 2, 8:45 pm, "MikeWhy" <boat042-nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> HardySpicer wrote:
>>>> I am wondering if any ofyou share my vision of an FPGA (or
>>>> equivalent) type future. By this I mean programmable hardware. Your
>>>> PC will be nothing but a massive array of gates on which you
>>>> download your own custom processor. You use high level languages
>>>> which compiles direct to silicon and runs 100 times faster than
>>>> ordinary software.
>>>> A silicon compiler, full floating point. Suppose we need a modem -
>>>> just download it. A dual processor - no problem, just download it.
>>>
>>> It's already a reality. Sort of. Just plug an appropriate board in
>>> an available PCIe slot. Use the PC for general computing, and build
>>> your special world in the other space.
>>>
>>> The problem for real world has always been getting the data into and
>>> out of the FPGA. The problems are made worse by locking it up in the
>>> confines of an electrically noisy PC. If you're doing video, you
>>> need a mezzanine card for HDMI. Networking, again a mezzanine card
>>> for the QSFP+. SDR and sensor arrays need ADC and DAC. You could
>>> push it through the PC first and then pull it back out, but ... Even
>>> your modem needs an RJ11 jack to work. VoIP modem command could work
>>> already without additioanl hardware. You just need a reason for
>>> someone to set up a BBS to give you someplace to call. Now, just
>>> where did I put that list of Hayes AT command strings?
>>>
>>> I think I lack the imagination to put this to good use. Taking a
>>> nostalgic stroll by emulating Q*bert and other arcade console games
>>> in modern silicon might be fun, but lacks personal meaning aside
>>> from the doing. Tinkering with embedded systems on a board locked in
>>> a case subservient to a 3 GHz multi-core just seems a bit too
>>> quaint. Or lame.
>>>
>>> When it comes right down to it, I can't think of anything useful an
>>> average person might want with a configurable logic world. But,
>>> believing for the moment that "build it and they will come", it
>>> wouldn't take much to build a supproting infrastructure of drivers
>>> and development toolchains that even Grandmother can use. Or would
>>> it? I think to myself often these days that the Xilinx tools can be
>>> great one day if they ever found time to finish it.
>>>
>>> Oh! There's your answer. Put the Java Virtual Machine in the FPGA
>>> and I'll thank you for it. (Even though doing so immediately defeats
>>> the purpose of both. Dedicating programmable logic to the sole task
>>> of running acceptably a language whose only reason for existing is
>>> portability and hardware independence seems just too crazy to not
>>> have meaning. But then, I would want it on real silicon, a whole
>>> Java planet all for itself using the PC only for I/O and mass
>>> storage. And there goes all meaning for your FPGA world again.)
>>
>> Have you heard of the National instruments compact Rio? Does it all
>> for you - at a cost.
>
> Go big or go home. ;) I had in mind something more like this:
>
> http://hitechglobal.com/Boards/Virtex6_PCIExpress_Board.htm
>
> or even this:
>
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/AES-S6MB-LX9.htm
>
> Fire hose; sippy straw. Choices.
>
> Either would be great as stocking stuffers.

Re-reading your OP, I thought at first that maybe I had missed your point 
entirely. An infinite sea of gates precludes needing a PC for life support. 
But on second re-reflection, the analysis is correct. Even a very "massive 
array of gates" is short of infinite.

Starting from a blank PDL, you would (somehow) conjure into existence basic 
I/O. The common ones are HMI (neural mind meld?), and connectivity to 
download and instantiate even more peripherals and applications.

In the end, your finite (though massively large) array of gates will not be 
large enough for some tasks. You'll at that point recall that a previous 
generation of computing devices had standardized many of these common 
functions in hard silicon. Surely, instantiating interfaces to those antique 
devices will occupy fewer gates than re-implementing them.

To make the long story short, you'll find a usefully connected grouping of 
such off-loaded functionality in a 2010's era PC. As a culminating act of 
assimilating the past, you instantiate a 16 lane PCIe-2 interface, and plug 
the massive array of programmable logic gates into its rightful place, on 
the backplane of that ancient PC.

Not satisfied with this half-step into the past, you keep going straight 
back to mid-1990, and whisper the incantation that instantly floods the sea 
of gates with multitudes of SMP JVM cores. Voila. You no longer have even a 
solitary spare logic gate, but then, you don't need it. Everything runs in 
software. For the rare task not satisfied in software, you can add a second 
smaller PLD, perhaps right on the same PCI bus.

You can't win; you can't break even; and you surely can't get out of the 
game.