Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena? I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the de- Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple small hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to relax the stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my customer and ask them if it happens in their material. Thankee in advance. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com
Modeling Hysteresis
Started by ●July 18, 2012
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:00:36 -0500, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:>Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which >model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena?If you find one that doesn't cause convergence issues in a simulator, let me know. I'd like a general purpose hysteresis model myself. Magnetic hysteresis adds the modeling difficulty of being variable with starting point :-(> >I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the >hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in >piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just >about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. > >I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the de- >Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple small >hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to relax the >stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my customer and >ask them if it happens in their material. > >Thankee in advance....Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
"Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message news:EMGdnZAz5pY5QJvNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@web-ster.com...> Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which > model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena?Modern books on electric machines abound of magnetic hysteresis models. The degree of sophistication could be different; taking into account frequency, temperature, second order effects, etc.> I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the > hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in > piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just > about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. > > I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the de- > Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple small > hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to relax the > stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my customer and > ask them if it happens in their material.What do you really want? VLV
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:03:06 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:> "Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message > news:EMGdnZAz5pY5QJvNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@web-ster.com... >> Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which >> model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena? > > Modern books on electric machines abound of magnetic hysteresis models. > The degree of sophistication could be different; taking into account > frequency, temperature, second order effects, etc.Anything on the web?> >> I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the >> hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in >> piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just >> about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. >> >> I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the >> de- Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple >> small hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to >> relax the stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my >> customer and ask them if it happens in their material. > > What do you really want?"I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment" -- so I can't really say. But good hysteresis treatments in general would give me ideas. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:07:32 -0500, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:03:06 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > >> "Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message >> news:EMGdnZAz5pY5QJvNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@web-ster.com... >>> Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which >>> model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena? >> >> Modern books on electric machines abound of magnetic hysteresis models. >> The degree of sophistication could be different; taking into account >> frequency, temperature, second order effects, etc. > >Anything on the web? >> >>> I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the >>> hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in >>> piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just >>> about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. >>> >>> I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the >>> de- Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple >>> small hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to >>> relax the stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my >>> customer and ask them if it happens in their material. >> >> What do you really want? > >"I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment" -- so I can't >really say. But good hysteresis treatments in general would give me >ideas.I surfed on "hysteresis mathematical model -IEEE" and got a few interesting papers. Unless you're dealing with fixed hysteresis you're stuck with some kind of memory function... ick :-( ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Jul 18, 1:07=A0pm, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:03:06 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > > "Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message > >news:EMGdnZAz5pY5QJvNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@web-ster.com... > >> Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which > >> model hysteresis phenomena? =A0Any hysteresis phenomena? > > > Modern books on electric machines abound of magnetic hysteresis models. > > The degree of sophistication could be different; taking into account > > frequency, temperature, second order effects, etc. > > Anything on the web? > > > > >> I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the > >> hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress i=n> >> piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just > >> about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. > > >> I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the > >> de- Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple > >> small hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to > >> relax the stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my > >> customer and ask them if it happens in their material. > > > What do you really want? > > "I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment" -- so I can't > really say. =A0But good hysteresis treatments in general would give me > ideas. > > -- > My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. > My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. > Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? > > Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Softwarehttp://www.wesco=ttdesign.com Hi Tim, This is pretty much a half baked idea. But I'm thinking about comparator hysterisis, and wondering if you could make some piece wise digital model? I'm not sure how to wire up a string (or ladder) of comparators to do what you want. But maybe this can spark some other ideas. George H.
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:58:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:00:36 -0500, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> > wrote: > >>Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which >>model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena? > > If you find one that doesn't cause convergence issues in a simulator, > let me know. I'd like a general purpose hysteresis model myself. > > Magnetic hysteresis adds the modeling difficulty of being variable with > starting point :-(If you feel that your hysteresis models aren't challenging the simulator enough, try modeling friction. The only time I've ever gotten Matlab to actually crash (rather than hanging) was trying to simulate friction. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:11:13 -0500, the renowned Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:58:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: > >> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:00:36 -0500, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> >> wrote: >> >>>Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which >>>model hysteresis phenomena? Any hysteresis phenomena? >> >> If you find one that doesn't cause convergence issues in a simulator, >> let me know. I'd like a general purpose hysteresis model myself. >> >> Magnetic hysteresis adds the modeling difficulty of being variable with >> starting point :-( > >If you feel that your hysteresis models aren't challenging the simulator >enough, try modeling friction. > >The only time I've ever gotten Matlab to actually crash (rather than >hanging) was trying to simulate friction.This has Stribeck, viscous and coulomb friction:- http://www.mathworks.com/help/toolbox/physmod/simscape/ref/translationalfriction.html Note they avoid the discontinuity.. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Jul 18, 3:11=A0pm, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:58:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:00:36 -0500, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> > > wrote: > > >>Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which > >>model hysteresis phenomena? =A0Any hysteresis phenomena? > > > If you find one that doesn't cause convergence issues in a simulator, > > let me know. =A0I'd like a general purpose hysteresis model myself. > > > Magnetic hysteresis adds the modeling difficulty of being variable with > > starting point :-( > > If you feel that your hysteresis models aren't challenging the simulator > enough, try modeling friction. > > The only time I've ever gotten Matlab to actually crash (rather than > hanging) was trying to simulate friction. > > -- > My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. > My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. > Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? > > Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Softwarehttp://www.wesco=ttdesign.com back in the netlist entry mode for PSpice I modeled a simple mechanical system complete with friction AND backlash. Made for some very intersting plots of response. Just started into adding stiction but quit due to actual work requirements. As in had to go back to productive work to make money.
Reply by ●July 18, 20122012-07-18
On Jul 18, 9:00=A0am, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:> Anyone have any pointers to mathematical models that they like which > model hysteresis phenomena? =A0Any hysteresis phenomena? > > I'm feeling kind of constrained by NDA at the moment, but all of the > hysteresis behaviors that I know of (gear backlash, magnetic, stress in > piezoelectric crystals) seem to share some common behaviors, so just > about _any_ model that's mathematically tractable would be helpful. > > I also know that I've seen pictures out there in internet-land of the de- > Gaussing process plotted on a B-H curve that showed that multiple small > hysteresis cycles tend (at least in some magnetic materials) to relax the > stored energy due to hysteresis -- I want to run that by my customer and > ask them if it happens in their material. > > Thankee in advance. > > -- > My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. > My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. > Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? > > Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Softwarehttp://www.wesco=ttdesign.com The Jiles-Atherton model in PSpice has hysteresis. The MicroSim PSpice used to plot the BH curve straight, so it was somewhat easy to adjust to whatever you needed. Depending on starting point you got a lot of different responses, but thatis the definition of hysteresis. That today is based upon a bit of history, so where you start SHOULD affect the response.
