I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it would only happen once. We have had an electrician come out to our home several times to fix it. The first time he replaced the circuit breaker. I'm not sure what he did the second time, but that didn't help either. The 3rd time he cut some wires in each of the 6 kitchen ceiling light "cans". That didn't help either. Then he decided to put the kitchen lights on a different circuit than the lights in the living room. That helped. We haven't had problems with the lights going out since then - until now. There were only 9 light bulbs on that circuit. That�s 900W at maximum. At a voltage of 125V, the load is approximately 7.2AMPS. The circuit breaker has a nominal value of 15AMPS. So it was definitely not a load issue. And it wasn't a faulty circuit breaker either. So then it must be a wiring/circuit problem. Solving such a problem requires either [1] re-wiring or [2] identifying the bad wire. The electrician did neither. He just moved the living room lights over on a different circuit. This is a quick-fix. It's not a solution to the problem. It's masking/hiding a problem. If the lights were moved back on the same circuit we would have the exact same problem. Now the problem started happening again. This time with living room lights and the dining room lights. The living room lights were moved over on the same circuit as the dining room lights. So I guess it's the living room lights that's causing a problem? Long story short: I have taken some pictures of the circuit breaker. As far as I know the latch position tells something about what the problem is, but I haven't been able to find information about what the different latch positions mean, so I'm hoping that somebody here can tell me. https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x6wrflbbznhh6z/IMG_20121213_190904.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctnffoo1blph87j/IMG_20121213_190915.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqgb9sswr3vubuc/IMG_20121213_190952.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/zn6matqzzaezwwh/IMG_20121213_191044.jpg
Off-Topic: Circuit breaker. Latch position?
Started by ●December 13, 2012
Reply by ●December 13, 20122012-12-13
Mauritz Jameson <mjames2393@gmail.com> wrote:> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen > lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off > randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it > would only happen once.> We have had an electrician come out to our home several times to fix > it. The first time he replaced the circuit breaker. I'm not sure what > he did the second time, but that didn't help either. The 3rd time he > cut some wires in each of the 6 kitchen ceiling light "cans". That > didn't help either. Then he decided to put the kitchen lights on a > different circuit than the lights in the living room. That helped. We > haven't had problems with the lights going out since then - until now.> There were only 9 light bulbs on that circuit. That???s 900W at maximum. > At a voltage of 125V, the load is approximately 7.2AMPS. The circuit > breaker has a nominal value of 15AMPS. So it was definitely not a load > issue.Well, there could be other things on the same circuit, that come off the same branch, that he didn't know about. In the kitchen that could be a toaster or microwave, either of which along with 7.2A could be enough to trip a 15A breaker. Dishwasher should normally have its own so it shouldn't be that.> And it wasn't a faulty circuit breaker either. So then it must > be a wiring/circuit problem. Solving such a problem requires either > [1] re-wiring or [2] identifying the bad wire. The electrician did > neither. He just moved the living room lights over on a different > circuit. This is a quick-fix. It's not a solution to the problem. It's > masking/hiding a problem. If the lights were moved back on the same > circuit we would have the exact same problem.Find out which breaker each of the outlets in the kitchen comes from, so you know it isn't one of them. Even better, continue with the rest of the lights and outlets in the house.> Now the problem started happening again. This time with living room > lights and the dining room lights. The living room lights were moved > over on the same circuit as the dining room lights. So I guess it's > the living room lights that's causing a problem?> Long story short: I have taken some pictures of the circuit breaker. > As far as I know the latch position tells something about what the > problem is, but I haven't been able to find information about what the > different latch positions mean, so I'm hoping that somebody here can > tell me.Well, there are pretty much three positions, and pictures don't help that much. There are "ON", "OFF", and "tripped" with the latter usually between ON and OFF. Unless someone is playing a trick on you, it should be in the "tripped" position when it goes off. Then you turn it to "OFF" and then back to "ON". If you trace down all the circuits to be sure that there aren't too many things on one, then the next is to find out how much current is actually being used on the circuit. That is easiest done with a "clamp-on" ammeter. With the panel off the breaker box, it clamps over a wire and tells you how much current is being used. One like this: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03482372000P would do it, and probably costs less than an electrician visit. This is a little off topic for comp.dsp, but maybe there isn't a better group. -- glen
Reply by ●December 14, 20122012-12-14
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:22:49 PM UTC-5, Mauritz Jameson wrote:> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen > > lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off > > randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it > > would only happen once. > > > > We have had an electrician come out to our home several times to fix > > it. The first time he replaced the circuit breaker. I'm not sure what > > he did the second time, but that didn't help either. The 3rd time he > > cut some wires in each of the 6 kitchen ceiling light "cans". That > > didn't help either. Then he decided to put the kitchen lights on a > > different circuit than the lights in the living room. That helped. We > > haven't had problems with the lights going out since then - until now. > > > > There were only 9 light bulbs on that circuit. That�s 900W at maximum. > > At a voltage of 125V, the load is approximately 7.2AMPS. The circuit > > breaker has a nominal value of 15AMPS. So it was definitely not a load > > issue. And it wasn't a faulty circuit breaker either. So then it must > > be a wiring/circuit problem. Solving such a problem requires either > > [1] re-wiring or [2] identifying the bad wire. The electrician did > > neither. He just moved the living room lights over on a different > > circuit. This is a quick-fix. It's not a solution to the problem. It's > > masking/hiding a problem. If the lights were moved back on the same > > circuit we would have the exact same problem. > > > > Now the problem started happening again. This time with living room > > lights and the dining room lights. The living room lights were moved > > over on the same circuit as the dining room lights. So I guess it's > > the living room lights that's causing a problem? > > > > Long story short: I have taken some pictures of the circuit breaker. > > As far as I know the latch position tells something about what the > > problem is, but I haven't been able to find information about what the > > different latch positions mean, so I'm hoping that somebody here can > > tell me. > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x6wrflbbznhh6z/IMG_20121213_190904.jpg > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctnffoo1blph87j/IMG_20121213_190915.jpg > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqgb9sswr3vubuc/IMG_20121213_190952.jpg > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zn6matqzzaezwwh/IMG_20121213_191044.jpgYou also can have rats biting into the wires in the attic and tripping the breaker that way. Does the problem correllate with weather (rain, hot or cold)? As Glen mentioned somthing else may be on the circuit. Turn off the breaker and then see if everything else still has power. Clay
Reply by ●December 14, 20122012-12-14
Are there any low voltage fixtures on the circuit? Make sure you know all lights, lamps, and appliances on the circuit. You could unplug all devices, unscrew all light bulbs, remove the circuit breaker and Ohm-out the circuit to insure you've got infinity between the wires.
Reply by ●December 15, 20122012-12-15
The problem doesn't seem to correlate with weather. Everything else has power when the breaker trips. There is only the dining room lights and the living room lights on the circuit (8 light bulbs in total).> You also can have rats biting into the wires in the attic and tripping the breaker that way. Does the problem correllate with weather (rain, hot or cold)? As Glen mentioned somthing else may be on the circuit. Turn off the breaker and then see if everything else still has power.
Reply by ●December 17, 20122012-12-17
On 12/13/2012 08:22 PM, Mauritz Jameson wrote:> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen > lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off > randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it > would only happen once.In my experience, strange behavior in household wiring is often caused by an open neutral. The first thing I would check is that all the neutral connections in the breaker box are good and tight. -- j w thomas (j omega t)
Reply by ●December 17, 20122012-12-17
Jim Thomas <jomegat@jomegat.com> writes:> [...] > -- j w thomas (j omega t):) -- Randy Yates Digital Signal Labs http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
Reply by ●December 18, 20122012-12-18
Jim Thomas <jomegat@jomegat.com> wrote:> On 12/13/2012 08:22 PM, Mauritz Jameson wrote: >> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen >> lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off >> randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it >> would only happen once.> In my experience, strange behavior in household wiring is often caused > by an open neutral. The first thing I would check is that all the > neutral connections in the breaker box are good and tight.It certainly can cause strange problems, though they usually shouldn't be this problem. More specifically, when they run two circuits of opposite polarity (opposites sides of the branch circuit transformer) along with a single neutral, and even more, use both screws (or worse, push-in terminals) along the way, then neutral continuity depends on all those points along the way. -- glen
Reply by ●December 18, 20122012-12-18
On 12/17/2012 11:34 PM, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:> Jim Thomas<jomegat@jomegat.com> wrote: >> On 12/13/2012 08:22 PM, Mauritz Jameson wrote: >>> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen >>> lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off >>> randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it >>> would only happen once. > >> In my experience, strange behavior in household wiring is often caused >> by an open neutral. The first thing I would check is that all the >> neutral connections in the breaker box are good and tight. > > It certainly can cause strange problems, though they usually > shouldn't be this problem.It's a long shot, I agree. But if a circuit of the opposite phase is feeding through this one, it would increase the current through the breaker (and the load) and that could trip it. But I would expect the lights to brighten up if that were the case. With no neutral, everything seems fine if the loads are balanced. It's when the load becomes unbalanced that crazy things start to happen. Then you're at the mercy of the loads behaving like voltage dividers.> > More specifically, when they run two circuits of opposite > polarity (opposites sides of the branch circuit transformer) > along with a single neutral, and even more, use both screws > (or worse, push-in terminals) along the way, then neutral > continuity depends on all those points along the way. > > -- glen-- Jim Thomas (a.k.a. J Omega T) jomegat@jomegat.com The real fun of living wisely is that you get to be smug about it. - Hobbes
Reply by ●December 20, 20122012-12-20
On 12/17/2012 8:55 PM, Jim Thomas wrote:> On 12/13/2012 08:22 PM, Mauritz Jameson wrote: >> I bought a new home in December 2011. After some time the kitchen >> lights and the lights in the living room started to switch off >> randomly. Some days it would happen 3-4 times in a row. Other days it >> would only happen once. > > In my experience, strange behavior in household wiring is often caused > by an open neutral. The first thing I would check is that all the > neutral connections in the breaker box are good and tight.When a friend had a new furnace installed, the lights in the house began randomly dimming. The electricians systematically traced the wiring, with all the difficulty attendant on finding internments. Eventually, they found a fried snake under a steel plate in the well house. (There must be more to the story that I don't know.) One weekend when the kids went up to my house in the Catskills, half the lights were out and the water pressure was low. I eventually found an electrocuted woodchuck and a ground fault on one side of the 220V line to the water pump. That's how I learned that a 220V deep-well pump will operate at 110V with diminished capacity. It's a relief to know that diminished capacity is at least worth something. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
