Are logic gates dead?

By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck? For something serious, do
we still use logic gates anymore?Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
other than at University?

Tom

HI,

Science means that one can analyse things down to the lowest level.
Engineering is not science, but yet it can be of great advantage to
know the underlying principles. 

Uli

-- 
------- http://grassomusic.de -------

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:27 +1200, Tom wrote:
> By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
> flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
> microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck?

Nope.

> For something serious, do
> we still use logic gates anymore?

Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.

> Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
> other than at University?

Yup.

-- 
Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org)

Matthew Donadio wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:27 +1200, Tom wrote:
> > By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
> > flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
> > microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck?
>
> Nope.
>
> > For something serious, do
> > we still use logic gates anymore?
>
> Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
>

Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.

>
> > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
> > other than at University?
>
> Yup.

I would be interested to know what for exactly.

>
>
> --
> Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org)

"Tom" <somebody@nOpam.com> wrote in message
news:3F0B9844.D4305C7A@nOpam.com...
>
>
> Matthew Donadio wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:27 +1200, Tom wrote:
> > > By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
> > > flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
> > > microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck?
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > > For something serious, do
> > > we still use logic gates anymore?
> >
> > Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
> >
>
> Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.
>
> >
> > > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
> > > other than at University?
> >
> > Yup.
>
> I would be interested to know what for exactly.
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org)
>

So are you trying to get ammo to attack your tutors with, because you don't
see the relevance of Karnaugh maps and boolean algebra?
In many situations a simple logic gate will be the only solution due to
timing constraints or cost or both.

I've used individual gates in simple applications like for fast buffering of
CPU strobes to large RAM banks.

K-maps - no - all the complex logic I've designed has been using HDLs, so
I've always left simplification to the software tools.



"Graeme" <graeme@spamoff.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3f0bb6d6$0$45177$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
>
> "Tom" <somebody@nOpam.com> wrote in message
> news:3F0B9844.D4305C7A@nOpam.com...
> >
> >
> > Matthew Donadio wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:27 +1200, Tom wrote:
> > > > By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
> > > > flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use
of
> > > > microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck?
> > >
> > > Nope.
> > >
> > > > For something serious, do
> > > > we still use logic gates anymore?
> > >
> > > Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
> > >
> >
> > Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.
> >
> > >
> > > > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
> > > > other than at University?
> > >
> > > Yup.
> >
> > I would be interested to know what for exactly.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org)
> >
>
> So are you trying to get ammo to attack your tutors with, because you
don't
> see the relevance of Karnaugh maps and boolean algebra?
> In many situations a simple logic gate will be the only solution due to
> timing constraints or cost or both.
>
>

Tom wrote:

> 
> 
> Matthew Donadio wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:27 +1200, Tom wrote:
>> > By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
>> > flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
>> > microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> > For something serious, do
>> > we still use logic gates anymore?
>>
>> Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
>>
> 
> Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.
> 
>>
>> > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
>> > other than at University?
>>
>> Yup.
> 
> I would be interested to know what for exactly.

Tom, how do you want to build or use microcontrollers etc. when 
you consider these low-level subjects as a "dead duck"?

Do you think these neat devices come out of nothing?
Do you think the synthesis software that does the nasty 
boolean minimization is derived from some stellar constellation?

Regards,
Mario

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:21:25 +1200, Tom wrote:
>> > For something serious, do
>> > we still use logic gates anymore?
>>
>> Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
> 
> Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.

Why are they different?  There is no real difference except for the fact
that CPLDs and FPGAs take up less board space and are easier to modify.

>> > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
>> > other than at University?
>>
>> Yup.
> 
> I would be interested to know what for exactly.

Beats me, but I know I have used them.

-- 
Matthew Donadio (m.p.donadio@ieee.org)

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:42:54 -0400, Matthew Donadio
<m.p.donadio@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:21:25 +1200, Tom wrote:
>>> > For something serious, do
>>> > we still use logic gates anymore?
>>>
>>> Yup.  CPLDs and FPGAs come to mind.
>> 
>> Yes but I mean ordinary gates rather than prorgammable.
>
>Why are they different?  There is no real difference except for the fact
>that CPLDs and FPGAs take up less board space and are easier to modify.

[gross generalisations follow]

Gate Arrays are arrays of ordinary gates (transistors actually).

FPGAs implement most of their logic with small look up tables.  If you
want a two input AND gate, you'll actually get a small (16 entry)
memory programmed to be an AND gate.

CPLDs have relatively large and-or planes.

>>> > Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
>>> > other than at University?
>>>
>>> Yup.
>> 
>> I would be interested to know what for exactly.
>
>Beats me, but I know I have used them.

I've used them too.

Regards,
Allan.

Tom wrote:
> 
> By this I mean that at Universities, students are still taught J-K
> flip-flops,Boolean algebra,logic gates etc. With the increased use of
> microcontrollers is the subject a dead duck? For something serious, do
> we still use logic gates anymore?Has anybody ever use a Karnaugh map
> other than at University?
> 
> Tom

That depends strongly on what you think an engineer should know. In some
work, you will even need to know the difference between a wood screw and
a sheet-metal screw od the same designation (3/4 10, e.g.). It's too bad
that you won't learn the function of bleed and reheat in the steam
turbines that turn the generators that make the electricity that ... ,
but somewhere, if you have power to run your microcontroller, there is
an electrical engineer who does. 

Your microcontroller can be looked at in several ways. To an early 20th
century chemist, it is a piece of incredibly pure silicon with a surface
mostly oxidized, and some metal (evidently evaporated!) over that. To a
quantum physicist, it's an incredibly complex array of nifty quantum
tricks, with an incomprehensible range of possible responses to stimuli.
To the guy who designed it and will design the next one, it's a bunch of
gates, and he knows what it does.

I was playing with radios before television went commercial. A lot of
repair shops sprung up as TV became more ubiquitous. Many of them were
staffed by people who knew even less than I. The fixed most problems by
changing parts, mostly tubes, and it a problem was too deep for them the
set hat to go to the shop, where there was better test gear but more
important, someone who understood how TV worked. Those front-line grunts
were known as "tube jockeys". If you want to be a microcontroller jockey
and refer the hard problems to the guy who really knows, ignore gates. 

If I were to interview you for a job after graduation, I would likely
ask you if you knew what a relay is, and if you did, I would ask you to
show me how to wire some to perform various logic functions, including
two ways to do an EXOR. The more tools in your box and the more tricks
in your bag, the more you can do for your boss, and that's what it's
about.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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