Hi Guys, I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. I thought some of you might also find that book material (about American university math education) interesting since many of you are "in the business" of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. The book is: "Why the Professor Can't Teach: Mathematics and the Dilemma of University Education" by Morris Kline. The book can be found at: http://www.marco-learningsystems.com/pages/kline/prof.html (Kline was unsuccessful in getting his publisher to change the title of the book, which Kline thought sounded too negative. This book is not an attack on professors but is rather a wide-ranging critique of undergraduate education.) Kline, who was a Math professor at New York University, is also the author of the more well-known book: "Why Johnny Can't Add." Please know that I saw the recent thread arguing about which universities, American & European, are better. This post is *not* related to that thread. (My guess is that both American & European universities have the problems described by Mr. Kline.) OK, See Ya', [-Rick-]
Slightly OT: Math training in universities
Started by ●November 12, 2004
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
"Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...> > Hi Guys, > > I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day > that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. > I thought some of you might also find that book > material (about American university math education) > interesting since many of you are "in the business" > of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching > Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. > The book is: >Hello Rick, I started to read the above book - interesting. I'll finish it at some later time. My personal experience was quite different. My undergrad degree is in math, and all but two of the courses I took were taught in a regular sized school room. The two exceptions were "History of Motion Cinema" and "Music Appreciation." And I didn't think the large class size for those two caused much difficulty. My math classes after the 1st year's calculus, usually had only 10 to 15 students. The 1st year courses had upwards of 30. All of the math courses were taught by PhDs. The only experience I had with GTAs was in laboratory courses (physics). And in that case, the GTAs oversee the conduction of the experiments. The actual courses were taught by PhDs. So the abuse of GTAs is not quite everywhere. Yes it is true that schools facing large budget crunches, have strong incentive to use lost cost personel for teaching. But not everything has gone that way. Part of selecting a university to attend is to see who is teaching and see if the classes are relatively small. I really enjoyed the small classes since the professor would know all of the students and there was plenty of opportunity for discussion about related topics. Clay
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
Clay Turner wrote:> "Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message > news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net... > >>Hi Guys, >> >> I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day >>that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. >>I thought some of you might also find that book >>material (about American university math education) >>interesting since many of you are "in the business" >>of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching >>Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. >>The book is: >> > > > Hello Rick, > > I started to read the above book - interesting. I'll finish it at some later > time. > > My personal experience was quite different. My undergrad degree is in math, > and all but two of the courses I took were taught in a regular sized school > room. The two exceptions were "History of Motion Cinema" and "Music > Appreciation." And I didn't think the large class size for those two caused > much difficulty. My math classes after the 1st year's calculus, usually had > only 10 to 15 students. The 1st year courses had upwards of 30. All of the > math courses were taught by PhDs. The only experience I had with GTAs was in > laboratory courses (physics). And in that case, the GTAs oversee the > conduction of the experiments. The actual courses were taught by PhDs. So > the abuse of GTAs is not quite everywhere. Yes it is true that schools > facing large budget crunches, have strong incentive to use lost cost > personel for teaching. But not everything has gone that way. Part of > selecting a university to attend is to see who is teaching and see if the > classes are relatively small. I really enjoyed the small classes since the > professor would know all of the students and there was plenty of opportunity > for discussion about related topics.Crowded lecture halls haven't been my experience either. My first semester in CCNY, I took differential calculus and analytic geometry, which was supposed to be its prerequisite. Both were small classes. AG was taught by a graduate student from NYU, a dedicated fellow who spent a lot of his own time tutoring some students in trouble, and who enlisted me and others to help. (One learns a lot that way!) Dif Calc was taught by Professor Barber, the chairman of the Math department. He taught well. I finished the year and quit. When I went back four years later, a man stopped me in a corridor and asked, "Jerry, what are you doing here?" It was Dean Barber, Dean of Students in the Liberal Arts School. He was disappointed to learn that I intended to study engineering, and several times tried to get me to switch to physics (in his domain). I liked him and we conversed occasionally. In winter, I was frequently mistaken for him; we were the only two people in that enormous* school who wore red earmuffs. I last saw him when he led a group of freshmen on a visit to RCA Labs. I dropped my work and spent the day helping them to see the sights. He taught math until he retired. City College was a very good school then, and it probably still is. Jerry ________________________________________________ * Two graduations a year, for spring and fall semesters. I was one of 200 graduating EEs in my semester, 600 engineers in all. The engineering graduates were less than a tenth of the whole. -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:42:34 -0500, "Clay Turner" <physics@bellsouth.net> wrote:> >"Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message >news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net... >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day >> that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. >> I thought some of you might also find that book >> material (about American university math education) >> interesting since many of you are "in the business" >> of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching >> Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. >> The book is: >> > >Hello Rick, > >I started to read the above book - interesting. I'll finish it at some later >time. > >My personal experience was quite different. My undergrad degree is in math, >and all but two of the courses I took were taught in a regular sized school >room. The two exceptions were "History of Motion Cinema" and "Music >Appreciation." And I didn't think the large class size for those two caused >much difficulty. My math classes after the 1st year's calculus, usually had >only 10 to 15 students. The 1st year courses had upwards of 30. All of the >math courses were taught by PhDs. The only experience I had with GTAs was in >laboratory courses (physics). And in that case, the GTAs oversee the >conduction of the experiments. The actual courses were taught by PhDs. So >the abuse of GTAs is not quite everywhere. Yes it is true that schools >facing large budget crunches, have strong incentive to use lost cost >personel for teaching. But not everything has gone that way. Part of >selecting a university to attend is to see who is teaching and see if the >classes are relatively small. I really enjoyed the small classes since the >professor would know all of the students and there was plenty of opportunity >for discussion about related topics.I went to a small school that was exclusively engineering and science (South Dakota School of Mines and Technology). At that time there wasn't a lot of industry support in the region and the professors were there to teach and do a little NSF research. I went through college thinking it was normal that all classes were taught by the professors, and many of our labs were also taught by the same PhDs or senior professors that taught the classes. It wasn't unusual for us to attend parties at the prof's homes or call them at home with a question. I didn't understand how unusual that is until after I graduated. It has since seemed odd to me that the big, prestigious schools crank out people taught en masse by TAs and GAs and our little podunk school cranked out people more personally taught by PhDs. FWIW I've since decided that I wouldn't trade the education I got for what seems to be the norm from the "best" schools. Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp. My opinions may not be Intel's opinions. http://www.ericjacobsen.org
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
"Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...> > Hi Guys, > > I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day > that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. > I thought some of you might also find that book > material (about American university math education) > interesting since many of you are "in the business" > of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching > Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. > The book is: > > "Why the Professor Can't Teach: Mathematics and > the Dilemma of University Education" > > by Morris Kline. The book can be found at: > > http://www.marco-learningsystems.com/pages/kline/prof.html > > (Kline was unsuccessful in getting his publisher to > change the title of the book, which Kline thought > sounded too negative. This book is not an attack on > professors but is rather a wide-ranging critique of > undergraduate education.) > > Kline, who was a Math professor at New York University, > is also the author of the more well-known book: > > "Why Johnny Can't Add." > > Please know that I saw the recent thread arguing about > which universities, American & European, are better. > This post is *not* related to that thread. (My guess > is that both American & European universities have the > problems described by Mr. Kline.)Yes, that is the case in the UK, at any rate. Universities here have been 'dumbing down' for years. Where I worked a few years ago I supervised some students at a northern university who were doing projects with us - I'd have been ashamed to submit the work they were doing for MSc degrees when I was a first year undergraduate. Things aren't any better in France. Last year I was staying with a friend of mine in Paris who runs the embedded systems lab at a 'Grande Ecole' (a postgraduate institution) and helped some of his students with their Masters, they seemed remarkedly ignorant. BTW, when I was at school 45 years ago, most US universities weren't very highly thought of by our teachers; I remember one of them joking about PhDs in basket weaving. Leon
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
"Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...> > Hi Guys, > > I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day > that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. > I thought some of you might also find that book > material (about American university math education) > interesting since many of you are "in the business" > of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching > Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. > The book is: > > "Why the Professor Can't Teach: Mathematics and > the Dilemma of University Education" > > by Morris Kline. The book can be found at:By the way - it's Maths not Math! Tom
Reply by ●November 12, 20042004-11-12
Number 6 wrote:> "Rick Lyons" <r.lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message > news:4194ccfe.57126078@news.sf.sbcglobal.net... > >>Hi Guys, >> >> I ran across a "Book-on-Line" the other day >>that once I started reading, I had trouble stopping. >>I thought some of you might also find that book >>material (about American university math education) >>interesting since many of you are "in the business" >>of education. I was shocked to read how Teaching >>Assistants (TAs) are being used and abused. >>The book is: >> >> "Why the Professor Can't Teach: Mathematics and >> the Dilemma of University Education" >> >>by Morris Kline. The book can be found at: > > > By the way - it's Maths not Math! > > > Tom > >That depends on latitude and longitude. In the US it's "math"; "maths", however sound your arguments may be for it being correct, sounds quaint to the US ear. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●November 13, 20042004-11-13
Number 6 wrote:> By the way - it's Maths not Math!You must be British or Australian. What is the practice in Canada? Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●November 17, 20042004-11-17
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote> Number 6 wrote: > > > By the way - it's Maths not Math! > > You must be British or Australian. What is the practice in Canada? >Jerry, Number 6 appears to be from New Zealand. While a Kiwi might not mind being called "British", they will certainly mind being called "Australian" :-) Add New Zealand to the list of right-speaking countries where it's Maths not Math. ;-) It's like the way Canadian's prefer to be called Canadian rather than American and Irish, Irish rather than British (if they're from the republic). :-) Ciao, Peter K.
Reply by ●November 17, 20042004-11-17
Peter Kootsookos wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote > >>Number 6 wrote: >> >> >>>By the way - it's Maths not Math! >> >>You must be British or Australian. What is the practice in Canada? >> > > > Jerry, Number 6 appears to be from New Zealand. While a Kiwi might > not mind being called "British", they will certainly mind being called > "Australian" :-) > > Add New Zealand to the list of right-speaking countries where it's > Maths not Math. ;-) > > It's like the way Canadian's prefer to be called Canadian rather than > American and Irish, Irish rather than British (if they're from the > republic). > > :-) > > Ciao, > > Peter K.Thanks for correcting my inadvertant crassness. I'm aware that in parts of Canada, what I call American cheese is called fromage canadienne. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
