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Shameless Plug

Started by Tim Wescott November 29, 2004
Geoff wrote:

  ...

> The linguistics scene has "descriptive grammarians" (currently in the > ascendant) versus "prescriptive grammarians" (started declining maybe 50 > years ago). That's why I regularly find books, and even learned papers, > which confuse "throes" with "throws", "pour" with "pore", and many more, > since schools ceased to bother students with (horror!) rules, > substantive examinations etc.
That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) ... Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message 
news:317hfaF3774rvU1@individual.net...
> Geoff wrote: > > ... > >> The linguistics scene has "descriptive grammarians" (currently in the >> ascendant) versus "prescriptive grammarians" (started declining maybe 50 >> years ago). That's why I regularly find books, and even learned papers, >> which confuse "throes" with "throws", "pour" with "pore", and many more, >> since schools ceased to bother students with (horror!) rules, >> substantive examinations etc. > > That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-)
Piques. I'm prescriptive. Years ago there was a weekly puzzle in our newspaper which used exactly that principal, they would give clues (no, not clews) that required a true prescriptive knowledge to answer. For example, they would give a clue along the lines of "to overwhelm with fauna" and the crossword would be filled in except for one letter. In this case the crossword would contain INFE?T. It would be up to you to choose between INFECT and INFEST. There was a $500 dollar prize for the correct answer to the crossword, which probably neede you to fill in only about 12 letters as explained above. I won twice over a period of 12 years. I don't think they run that puzzle anymore.
> Jerry > -- > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. > &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
BFoelsch wrote:

>"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message >news:317hfaF3774rvU1@individual.net... > > >>Geoff wrote: >> >> ... >> >> >> >>>The linguistics scene has "descriptive grammarians" (currently in the >>>ascendant) versus "prescriptive grammarians" (started declining maybe 50 >>>years ago). That's why I regularly find books, and even learned papers, >>>which confuse "throes" with "throws", "pour" with "pore", and many more, >>>since schools ceased to bother students with (horror!) rules, >>>substantive examinations etc. >>> >>> >>That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) >> >> > > >Piques. I'm prescriptive. > >Years ago there was a weekly puzzle in our newspaper which used exactly that >principal, they would give clues (no, not clews) that required a true >prescriptive knowledge to answer. For example, they would give a clue along >the lines of "to overwhelm with fauna" and the crossword would be filled in >except for one letter. In this case the crossword would contain INFE?T. It >would be up to you to choose between INFECT and INFEST. > >There was a $500 dollar prize for the correct answer to the crossword, which >probably neede you to fill in only about 12 letters as explained above. I >won twice over a period of 12 years. > >I don't think they run that puzzle anymore. > > > > > >>Jerry >>-- >>Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. >>&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095; >> >> > > > >
Dear B, I hesitated before replying because I wondered whether you were trolling when you used 'principal.' Now, it is not nice to correct spelling mistakes in postings, but being prescriptive, I thought that I should bring this error to your attention in accordance with the principle: 'He who lives by the (s)word shall die by the (s)word." Talking about word usage, Trolling is a hot topic in some of the other threads. I always thought that Trolls were monsters that lived under bridges in Scandinavia and who gobbled up travelers. Trawling is the process of dragging a net through the sea to catch fish, although 'Trolling' is also used. It seems to me that a person who engages in trawling or trolling should be a Trawler or a Troller, and not a Troll. Regards, John
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:07:18 +1100, John Monro wrote:
> Talking about word usage, Trolling is a hot topic in some of the other > threads. I always thought that Trolls were monsters that lived under > bridges in Scandinavia and who gobbled up travelers. Trawling is the > process of dragging a net through the sea to catch fish, although > 'Trolling' is also used. > It seems to me that a person who engages in trawling or trolling should > be a Trawler or a Troller, and not a Troll.
I had always assumed that the reason for this was twofold: (a) the early denizens of usenet were by-and-large computer geeks, or at least science geeks who had a greater affinity with fantasy of the D&D variety than with fishing, and (b) once the behaviour pattern is understood (by all) you can get away with using the (incorrect) term as a direct slur: much more satisfying in the heat of a flame fest. Of course, I'm just an engineer (who's been using Usenet since the days that it was carried by uucp), not a linguist. I may very well not know what I'm talking about. :-) Cheeers, -- Andrew
BFoelsch wrote:
> "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
...
>>That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) > > > > Piques. I'm prescriptive.
Good for you. I was being sarcastic (and rueful). I assumed that the "peek" would signal that I was poking fun.
> Years ago there was a weekly puzzle in our newspaper which used exactly that > principal, they would give clues (no, not clews) that required a true > prescriptive knowledge to answer. For example, they would give a clue along > the lines of "to overwhelm with fauna" and the crossword would be filled in > except for one letter. In this case the crossword would contain INFE?T. It > would be up to you to choose between INFECT and INFEST. > > There was a $500 dollar prize for the correct answer to the crossword, which > probably neede you to fill in only about 12 letters as explained above. I > won twice over a period of 12 years.
Congratulations! (No sarcasm.)
> I don't think they run that puzzle anymore.
Too bad. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
John Monro wrote:

  ...

> Dear B, > I hesitated before replying because I wondered whether you were trolling > when you used 'principal.' Now, it is not nice to correct spelling > mistakes in postings, but being prescriptive, I thought that I should > bring this error to your attention in accordance with the principle: > 'He who lives by the (s)word shall die by the (s)word."
That's a humdinger!
> Talking about word usage, Trolling is a hot topic in some of the other > threads. I always thought that Trolls were monsters that lived under > bridges in Scandinavia and who gobbled up travelers. Trawling is the > process of dragging a net through the sea to catch fish, although > 'Trolling' is also used. > It seems to me that a person who engages in trawling or trolling should > be a Trawler or a Troller, and not a Troll.
Troll and trawl may be related linguistically and used interchangeably in some places, but trolling in fresh water is trailing a fishing line from a moving boat. Perhaps that use connects trail to troll and trawl. Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report. http://www.bassfishingusa.com/trollingmotors.html Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:22:05 -0500, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:

>Troll and trawl may be related linguistically and used interchangeably >in some places, but trolling in fresh water is trailing a fishing line >from a moving boat. Perhaps that use connects trail to troll and trawl. >Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report. > >http://www.bassfishingusa.com/trollingmotors.html > >Jerry
Jerry beat me to it. I was going to point out that trolling is fishing with a line pulled by a moving boat, trawling is fishing with a net pulled by a moving boat. The etymology is probably interesting. In any case, the fishing and malicious Norwegian troll connections are both suitably fit descriptions for the sorts of usenet trolls that we're all too familiar with. Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp. My opinions may not be Intel's opinions. http://www.ericjacobsen.org
Jerry Avins wrote:

  ...

> Perhaps I'll look into the etymology; if I do, I'll report.
I found no obvious connection between trawl and troll, and no connection to trail seems to exist. Trawl is related to tract (as in traction, tractor) and derives directly from Latin "tragula"; sledge or dragnet. I guess tragula is cognate to German tragen, to carry or wear. Troll has a long history through at least Middle English, giving rise to trolley and trollop as well meaning fishing with lines from a moving boat. The basic meaning is turn or revolve. Side meanings were roll, wander, drag about, ramble, and surprisingly, to circulate drinks. From that last, it also means the singing if successive parts of a drinking song. Now that I've been reminded, I have heard "trolling" used to mean loud drunken reveling/caroling. Respectfully submitted; youts etc., Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:55:29 -0500, BFoelsch wrote:

> > "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message > news:317hfaF3774rvU1@individual.net... >> Geoff wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> The linguistics scene has "descriptive grammarians" (currently in the >>> ascendant) versus "prescriptive grammarians" (started declining maybe >>> 50 years ago). That's why I regularly find books, and even learned >>> papers, which confuse "throes" with "throws", "pour" with "pore", and >>> many more, since schools ceased to bother students with (horror!) >>> rules, substantive examinations etc. >> >> That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) > > > Piques. I'm prescriptive. > > Years ago there was a weekly puzzle in our newspaper which used exactly > that principal, they would give clues (no, not clews) that required a true
principle.
> prescriptive knowledge to answer. For example, they would give a clue > along the lines of "to overwhelm with fauna" and the crossword would be > filled in except for one letter. In this case the crossword would contain > INFE?T. It would be up to you to choose between INFECT and INFEST. > > There was a $500 dollar prize for the correct answer to the crossword, > which probably neede you to fill in only about 12 letters as explained > above. I won twice over a period of 12 years. > > I don't think they run that puzzle anymore.
Prizeword Pete - at least that's what they called the equivalent puzzle in The Minneapolis Star last millennium. :-) My mom and I did it every week, eagerly anticipating next week's paper as if it were powerball or something. ISTR that the prize money would roll over, and they'd increase it by about a hundred each week, until somebody won, when they'd start over at a hundred (or whatever - I was a kid, and it was the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - it might as well have been a million!) Cheers! Rich
Jerry Avins wrote:
> >BFoelsch wrote:
>> "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message > >>>That really peaks (or is it peeks?) my ire. :-) >> >> Piques. I'm prescriptive. > >Good for you. I was being sarcastic (and rueful). I assumed >that the "peek" would signal that I was poking fun.
Wordplay is the peak of humor.