I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language. I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos". I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' ) Found ONE interesting page http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~u0013314/greekg/history.htm I've sent it's Webmaster a request for more info. But I was wondering if someone could provide interesting links and/or suggestions on 'better' Google search terms. A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google. I *DID* say "WAY WAY OT" ;} Thanks to all and Merry Christmas
[ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology
Started by ●December 25, 2004
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Richard Owlett wrote:> I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language. > > I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos". > > I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' ) > Found ONE interesting page > http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~u0013314/greekg/history.htm > > I've sent it's Webmaster a request for more info. > > But I was wondering if someone could provide interesting links and/or > suggestions on 'better' Google search terms. > > A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google. > > I *DID* say "WAY WAY OT" ;} > Thanks to all and Merry ChristmasIf you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament (I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) and how they are represented in English. "Logos" is related to "legend". Its fundamental meaning grows out of the meaning "gather"; one picks legumes. An intelligent being selects (the 'leg' part) between (the 'inte[r] part) things; "discriminating" is a synonym. The meaning expands to include other kinds of reckoning including counting, and other kinds of collecting including reading. A log is a book in which events are recorded as words. In modern English, "logo" derives its meaning from "logotype", a single piece of type with an entire word (and/or a picture) on it, usually a trademark. "In the beginning was the word" could as well have been translated, "In the beginning was the reckoning." Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:> [...] > If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament > (I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you > would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some > cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between > the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) > and how they are represented in English.Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in Koine Greek. -- % Randy Yates % "So now it's getting late, %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % and those who hesitate %%% 919-577-9882 % got no one..." %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Waterfall', *Face The Music*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > >>[...] >>If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament >>(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you >>would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some >>cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between >>the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) >>and how they are represented in English. > > > Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament > was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in > Koine Greek.Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that? Ought I to have written, "(I know that 'In the beginning was the word' is from John 1:1, SO THIS DOESN'T APPLY DIRECTLY TO YOUR INTEREST IN KOINE GREEK)"? Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:> Randy Yates wrote: >> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >> >>>[...] >>>If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament >>>(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you >>>would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some >>>cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between >>>the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) >>>and how they are represented in English. >> >> >> Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament >> was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in >> Koine Greek. > > Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that?At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context. -- % Randy Yates % "With time with what you've learned, %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % they'll kiss the ground you walk %%% 919-577-9882 % upon." %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % '21st Century Man', *Time*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Richard Owlett wrote:> I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language. > > I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos". > > I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' ) > Found ONE interesting page...> A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google. >.. Just enter "logos" and "nomos" into google (or you could pair "logos" with "mythos", etc) and you should find lots of useful material. For example: http://www.websteruniv.edu/~evansja/glossary.html A useful general site for NT greek stuff is here: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/ Richard Dobson
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Randy Yates wrote:> > Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament > was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in > Koine Greek.This is proving an increasingly unsafe assumption. The native language of Jesus's listeners was Aramaic (or one of its many dialects), and thus was the language he used in his teaching, and even the assumption that the Gospel of John was written in Greek is, in the light of the latest scholarship, subject to the reservation that it is likely derived from earlier material in Syriac, an aramaic dialect. The current aramaic versions (the Peshitta) of all the canonical gospels are arguably much more authentic in both letter and spirit than the Greek texts, which have the effect of imposing Greek notions of Creation on communities (and a Teacher) who saw things very differently. The Greek texts of the NT contain many examples of sometimes gross mis-translations, which have been further compounded in translation into English (i.e. the KJV) by scholars who were well-schooled in classical Greek and Latin but who know nothing of the original languages. One classic example of mis-translation is in the saying "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...". The word translated as "camel" really signified "camel-hair rope", so that "rope" would be a much more correct translation, making the analogy reasonable and vivid (and rather more meaningful), and humerous rather than surreal! Richard Dobson
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > > >>Randy Yates wrote: >> >>>Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >>> >>> >>>>[...] >>>>If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament >>>>(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you >>>>would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some >>>>cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between >>>>the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) >>>>and how they are represented in English. >>> >>> >>>Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament >>>was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in >>>Koine Greek. >> >>Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that? > > > At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone > asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even > respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent > in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense > that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context.Of course, you're right. My comment to Richard was to the effect that exegesis is tricky at best, and dictionary translations can sometimes be worse than unhelpful. I then set out the little that I know about the ancient use of "logos", with some of the subsequent development that I hoped might illuminate part of it. I hope it worked for him as I intended. As for mistranslation, consider the passage in Isiah which in Hebrew predicts that "a young woman shall conceive", but is translated in the King James Version as "a virgin shall conceive". The error is understandable. In ancient Greek as in modern German, "young woman" (German junge Frau) means young woman, but "youngwoman" (German Jungfrau) means virgin. In the Hebrew of the time, both vowels and spaces between words were left to the reader's imagination. Then there's that "camel through the eye of a needle" that has at least two explanations that I know, one based on mistranslating "rope" for "camel" (I'm told that the words are similar in modern Arabic) and the other on lost context; the very narrow passage through the Jerusalem and other city walls narrow (strait) enough to be left open after the main gates were closed at night and known as "the needle's eye". Finally, one must remember that if there was a historical Jesus (the English translation of Jesus Christ is "Jesse the Anointed), he spoke Hebrew ceremonially and Aramaic colloquially. Any contemporaneous anecdotes or other record would have been written in Aramaic or Latin. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 25, 20042004-12-25
Richard Dobson wrote: ...> This is proving an increasingly unsafe assumption. The native language > of Jesus's listeners was Aramaic (or one of its many dialects), and thus > was the language he used in his teaching, and even the assumption that > the Gospel of John was written in Greek is, in the light of the latest > scholarship, subject to the reservation that it is likely derived from > earlier material in Syriac, an aramaic dialect. The current aramaic > versions (the Peshitta) of all the canonical gospels are arguably much > more authentic in both letter and spirit than the Greek texts, which > have the effect of imposing Greek notions of Creation on communities > (and a Teacher) who saw things very differently. The Greek texts of the > NT contain many examples of sometimes gross mis-translations, which have > been further compounded in translation into English (i.e. the KJV) by > scholars who were well-schooled in classical Greek and Latin but who > know nothing of the original languages. > > One classic example of mis-translation is in the saying "it is easier > for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...". The word > translated as "camel" really signified "camel-hair rope", so that "rope" > would be a much more correct translation, making the analogy reasonable > and vivid (and rather more meaningful), and humerous rather than surreal!Richard, You seem to have the topic well in hand, and if more comment is needed, I will leave that to you. Thank you for pitching in. That makes it easier for me to bow out before I, an outsider, offend someone. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 26, 20042004-12-26
Jerry Avins wrote:> Randy Yates wrote: > >>Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >> >> >> >>>Randy Yates wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>[...] >>>>>If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament >>>>>(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you >>>>>would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some >>>>>cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between >>>>>the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations) >>>>>and how they are represented in English. >>>> >>>> >>>>Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament >>>>was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in >>>>Koine Greek. >>> >>>Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that? >> >> >>At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone >>asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even >>respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent >>in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense >>that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context. > > > Of course, you're right. My comment to Richard was to the effect that > exegesis is tricky at best, ...That was what got me wondering about the etymology of 'logos'. I came across someone who claimed its origin was a word meaning "bridge" as "communication bridge between persons". That was far from any I had ever heard.> ... and dictionary translations can sometimes be worse than unhelpful.YES. And you have to use the same "dictionary" as original speaker. My favorite example is the 1611 King James Version says "Suffer the little children ..." 'Suffer' had a quite different PRIMARY meaning in 1611 than in 2004 :) > I then set out the little that I know about the> ancient use of "logos", with some of the subsequent development that I > hoped might illuminate part of it. I hope it worked for him as I intended.Yepp. It also gave me an idea of investigating where "logos" is used in the Septuagint {A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C.} and what Hebrew/Aramaic word(s) it translates. So that would lead to an interest for links to Hebrew as well as Greek etymology.> > As for mistranslation, consider the passage in Isiah which in Hebrew > predicts that "a young woman shall conceive", but is translated in the > King James Version as "a virgin shall conceive". The error is > understandable. In ancient Greek as in modern German, "young woman" > (German junge Frau) means young woman, but "youngwoman" (German > Jungfrau) means virgin. In the Hebrew of the time, both vowels and > spaces between words were left to the reader's imagination. > > Then there's that "camel through the eye of a needle" that has at least > two explanations that I know, one based on mistranslating "rope" for > "camel" (I'm told that the words are similar in modern Arabic) and the > other on lost context; the very narrow passage through the Jerusalem and > other city walls narrow (strait) enough to be left open after the main > gates were closed at night and known as "the needle's eye". > > Finally, one must remember that if there was a historical Jesus (the > English translation of Jesus Christ is "Jesse the Anointed), he spoke > Hebrew ceremonially and Aramaic colloquially. Any contemporaneous > anecdotes or other record would have been written in Aramaic or Latin. > > Jerry
