Slightly OT: EE Job outlook

This is slightly off topic, but I saw this article that may be of interest
to many of the readers here.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3017196/it-careers/u-s-predicts-zero-job-growth-for-electronics-engineers.html

To me, this is really sad.  As with many internet articles the comments
are as interesting as the article.  There is a lot of blaming on
off-shoring and importing of foreign workers.  That probably has an
effect, but I think the problem is deeper than that.

No, I don't have a simple answer, but I do think the leaders of industry
better start adjusting their priorities or this country will soon be a
hollowed out husk.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Ced
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Posted through http://www.DSPRelated.com

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, Cedron wrote:
> This is slightly off topic, but I saw this article that may be of interest
> to many of the readers here.
> 
> http://www.computerworld.com/article/3017196/it-careers/u-s-predicts-zero-job-growth-for-electronics-engineers.html
> 
> To me, this is really sad.  As with many internet articles the comments
> are as interesting as the article.  There is a lot of blaming on
> off-shoring and importing of foreign workers.  That probably has an
> effect, but I think the problem is deeper than that.
> 
> No, I don't have a simple answer, but I do think the leaders of industry
> better start adjusting their priorities or this country will soon be a
> hollowed out husk.
> 
> "Would you like fries with that?"
> 
> Ced
> ---------------------------------------
> Posted through http://www.DSPRelated.com


What's the difference between "electrical engineers" and "electronics engineers" ?

but then who cares...

>
>What's the difference between "electrical engineers" and "electronics
>engineers" ?
>
>but then who cares...

I care.

Do an internet search on "electrical vs electronic engineering" and you'll
get a range of answers.  However, according to the cited article, both
have dismal job outlooks.  I would not doubt that this carries over to DSP
as well.  This is probably true too for most high paying professional
jobs.

The big question is whether it is better for US standards to sink to third
world status, or to raise third world standard to US status.  I'm afraid
the answer to that question lies in the hands of the decision makers and
what their priorities are.

Ced

---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.DSPRelated.com

"Cedron" <103185@DSPRelated> writes:

> This is slightly off topic, but I saw this article that may be of interest
> to many of the readers here.
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/article/3017196/it-careers/u-s-predicts-zero-job-growth-for-electronics-engineers.html
>
> To me, this is really sad.  As with many internet articles the comments
> are as interesting as the article.  There is a lot of blaming on
> off-shoring and importing of foreign workers.  That probably has an
> effect, but I think the problem is deeper than that.
>
> No, I don't have a simple answer, but I do think the leaders of industry
> better start adjusting their priorities or this country will soon be a
> hollowed out husk.
>
> "Would you like fries with that?"
>
> Ced

I wonder how much of this is due to trickle-down effects of things like
common-core and the liberal dumbing down of our education system? Is
this growth for US electrical engineers, or for electrical engineers
in the US?

Also, if the population doesn't increase substantially, why is this
necessarily bad? Let's say for instance that the average grow of EE jobs
"as a percentage of the population" remains constant. Why is that bad?
Is our current proportion insufficient?
-- 
Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

>
>I wonder how much of this is due to trickle-down effects of things like
>common-core and the liberal dumbing down of our education system? Is
>this growth for US electrical engineers, or for electrical engineers
>in the US?
>
>Also, if the population doesn't increase substantially, why is this
>necessarily bad? Let's say for instance that the average grow of EE jobs
>"as a percentage of the population" remains constant. Why is that bad?
>Is our current proportion insufficient?
>-- 
>Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
>Digital Signal Labs
>http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Well, trickle down doesn't work in economics, so it is interesting that
you would use the term.  I'm no fan of centralization of power so you
won't find me defending common core and I don't think you can attribute
the dumbing down of the education system as being liberal.  It's been
happening a long time.

The underlying report is the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics), so I think
they are referring to electrical (and electronic) engineers in the US,
which is why the H1B visa renewal in congress is a hot topic in the
comments.

The outlook is for ten years, I don't think the population is going to
remain constant for that period, so the percentage of the population will
decline.

The reason I think it is bad is because both these fields are a proxy for
innovation, as opposed to something like plumbers or car mechanics, which
are more maintenance oriented.

If you accept the proposition "everything useful has already been
invented", then a downturn in innovation potential shouldn't bother you.

But, coming back to education, if there is little job growth potential in
these fields then there is much less incentive to study these subjects in
school.

Ced
---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.DSPRelated.com

On 12/28/2015 8:22 PM, Cedron wrote:
>>
>> I wonder how much of this is due to trickle-down effects of things like
>> common-core and the liberal dumbing down of our education system? Is
>> this growth for US electrical engineers, or for electrical engineers
>> in the US?
>>
>> Also, if the population doesn't increase substantially, why is this
>> necessarily bad? Let's say for instance that the average grow of EE jobs
>> "as a percentage of the population" remains constant. Why is that bad?
>> Is our current proportion insufficient?

How about we try to fill those jobs with citizens?

The part that bothers me more is the thread I followed about H-1B visas. 
  Seems while in 2013 Sen. Ted Cruz wanted to raise the H-1B visa cap by 
500%, he now wants to set a minimum wage for engineers under the H-1B 
visa program.  Of course, that exists already but is not remotely 
effective.

-- 

Rick

"Cedron" <103185@DSPRelated> writes:

>>
>>I wonder how much of this is due to trickle-down effects of things like
>>common-core and the liberal dumbing down of our education system? Is
>>this growth for US electrical engineers, or for electrical engineers
>>in the US?
>>
>>Also, if the population doesn't increase substantially, why is this
>>necessarily bad? Let's say for instance that the average grow of EE jobs
>>"as a percentage of the population" remains constant. Why is that bad?
>>Is our current proportion insufficient?
>>-- 
>>Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
>>Digital Signal Labs
>>http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
>
> Well, trickle down doesn't work in economics, so it is interesting that
> you would use the term.  

Mea culpa: I misused the term. I should have used "long-term effects."

> I'm no fan of centralization of power so you won't find me defending
> common core

> and I don't think you can attribute the dumbing down of the education
> system as being liberal. 

I'm not sure this was meant to get into this level of discussion, but I
certainly do think this comes from the "liberal thinkers." "Conservative
thinkers" are in general (guess what?) conservative. That means they
think kids should sit their butts down and do their homework, including
memorizing their multiplication tables, and the lessons that homework is
intended to drive home should very, very carefully constructed from
time-tested methods that work.

I don't think kids should have computers in the classroom any earlier
than fourth grade. They should learn basic reading, writing, and
arithmetic (through division) the good old-fashioned way: with a pencil
and paper. The pencil and paper (not the computer) is the best teaching
tool ever invented. I do not believe you get the same set of brain cells
stimulated learning arithmetic with an iPad like you do with a #2
pencil.

However, I would agree that there is no longer any real line between
"Democrat" and "Republican," so the which is often considered synonymous with
"liberal" and "conservative."

> It's been happening a long time.

Non-sequitor.

> The underlying report is the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics), so I think
> they are referring to electrical (and electronic) engineers in the US,
> which is why the H1B visa renewal in congress is a hot topic in the
> comments.
>
> The outlook is for ten years, I don't think the population is going to
> remain constant for that period, so the percentage of the population will
> decline.

That is probably true. How much is not certain.

> The reason I think it is bad is because both these fields are a proxy for
> innovation, as opposed to something like plumbers or car mechanics, which
> are more maintenance oriented.
>
> If you accept the proposition "everything useful has already been
> invented", then a downturn in innovation potential shouldn't bother
> you.

Where did I say that? 

> But, coming back to education, if there is little job growth potential in
> these fields then there is much less incentive to study these subjects in
> school.

That is true, too.
-- 
Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 8:22:07 PM UTC-5, Cedron wrote:
> >
> The reason I think it is bad is because both these fields are a proxy for
> innovation, as opposed to something like plumbers or car mechanics, which
> are more maintenance oriented.
> 
> If you accept the proposition "everything useful has already been
> invented", then a downturn in innovation potential shouldn't bother you.

Interestingly the outlook is much brighter for software engineers.  The same BLS report projects employment for software developers to grow by 10 to 19 percent over the next 10 years, or much faster than average, by their characterization.

Could it be that innovation opportunities are evolving rather than eroding?

On 29.12.2015 0:21, Cedron wrote:

(snip)

> I'm afraid
> the answer to that question lies in the hands of the decision makers and
> what their priorities are.

Sometimes politicians are accidentally getting things right. For 
example, it's hard to argue that our major concern should be fighting ISIs.

Evgeny.

>On 29.12.2015 0:21, Cedron wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>> I'm afraid
>> the answer to that question lies in the hands of the decision makers
and
>> what their priorities are.
>
>Sometimes politicians are accidentally getting things right. For 
>example, it's hard to argue that our major concern should be fighting
ISIs.
>
>Evgeny.

No, it's easy to argue otherwise, but this is way too off topic so I will
only say "Iraq war".

Cue "We won't get fooled again" by the Who.

Ced
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