Hello, I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. What will happen?Some people told me that my computer will become a complete speed demon. I would like your opinion ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
CPU replacement on a MSX II
Started by ●December 20, 2016
Reply by ●December 20, 20162016-12-20
On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote:> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. > I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the > original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. > What will happen?Nothing. It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before.> Some people told me that my computer will become > a complete speed demon. > I would like your opinionThey are wrong. Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. Marcel
Reply by ●December 20, 20162016-12-20
On 12/20/2016 5:07 PM, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote:> > Hello, > I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. > I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the > original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. > What will happen?Some people told me that my computer will become > a complete speed demon. > I would like your opinionIt will... for very limited values of "speed demon". As Marcel pointed out the CPU speed is set by the crystal clock, but that can be changed. Also, a replacement might use different numbers of clock cycles to execute instructions, so that could be faster. But no matter what, a 10x faster Z80 is still a Z80. It won't be nearly as fast as a Z80 emulation on a PC. -- Rick C
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message:> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. >> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the >> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. >> What will happen? > > Nothing. > It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. > >> Some people told me that my computer will become >> a complete speed demon. >> I would like your opinion > > They are wrong. > > Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the > circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. > > > Marcel >So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on waveform when in cassettes. All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. My new Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. So I guess that it will load faster? What changes it might need? -- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
On 12/21/2016 12:36 AM, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote:> Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: >> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. >>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the >>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. >>> What will happen? >> >> Nothing. >> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. >> >>> Some people told me that my computer will become >>> a complete speed demon. >>> I would like your opinion >> >> They are wrong. >> >> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the >> circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. >> >> >> Marcel >> > > So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? > That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. > So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on > waveform when in cassettes. > All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. > My new Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. > So I guess that it will load faster? > > What changes it might need?You likely will need to recode some of the I/O routines since they likely use timing loops to establish wait times. Tape interfaces are typically time oriented to recover the data. If you speed up the CPU it will shorten the time loops causing the interface to fail. If this drives a video interface, it likely is also dependent on timing by the CPU. Often they used a line frequency interrupt which triggered the CPU to output the bytes to the screen with a set timing. I did a little reading and it seems they used the V9938 video display chip. I expect this handles all the video timing, so as long as the clock to the video circuits remains the same, that should continue to work. You really need to get more info on how the system was designed. I see this was not one machine from one company, but rather a general computer spec that many companies built computers to. I see mentioned a 1chipMSX which was the entire computer logic in an FPGA. That would give you all the info you need if you could find the design documents for it. It also should put your 20 MHz Z80 to shame if you can find one. An FPGA implementation could potentially run at 50 to 100 MHz. It looks like there are blogs and other info available on the Internet. Maybe there are still some active groups? Here is an interesting link giving a brief overview of the MSX history. http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-happened-to-msx-computers/ -- Rick C
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Wrote in message:> On 12/21/2016 12:36 AM, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >> Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: >>> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >>>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. >>>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the >>>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. >>>> What will happen? >>> >>> Nothing. >>> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. >>> >>>> Some people told me that my computer will become >>>> a complete speed demon. >>>> I would like your opinion >>> >>> They are wrong. >>> >>> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the >>> circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. >>> >>> >>> Marcel >>> >> >> So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? >> That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. >> So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on >> waveform when in cassettes. >> All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. >> My new Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. >> So I guess that it will load faster? >> >> What changes it might need? > > You likely will need to recode some of the I/O routines since they > likely use timing loops to establish wait times. Tape interfaces are > typically time oriented to recover the data. If you speed up the CPU it > will shorten the time loops causing the interface to fail. > > If this drives a video interface, it likely is also dependent on timing > by the CPU. Often they used a line frequency interrupt which triggered > the CPU to output the bytes to the screen with a set timing. > > I did a little reading and it seems they used the V9938 video display > chip. I expect this handles all the video timing, so as long as the > clock to the video circuits remains the same, that should continue to work. > > You really need to get more info on how the system was designed. I see > this was not one machine from one company, but rather a general computer > spec that many companies built computers to. I see mentioned a 1chipMSX > which was the entire computer logic in an FPGA. That would give you all > the info you need if you could find the design documents for it. It > also should put your 20 MHz Z80 to shame if you can find one. An FPGA > implementation could potentially run at 50 to 100 MHz. > > It looks like there are blogs and other info available on the Internet. > Maybe there are still some active groups? > > Here is an interesting link giving a brief overview of the MSX history. > > http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-happened-to-msx-computers/ > > -- > > Rick C >It is a Phillips NMS machine So the speed won't be much different due to the clock ? Also are the pinouts changed? -- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 12:29:45 AM UTC-8, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote:> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Wrote in message: > > On 12/21/2016 12:36 AM, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: > >> Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: > >>> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: > >>>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. > >>>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the > >>>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. > >>>> What will happen? > >>> > >>> Nothing. > >>> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. > >>> > >>>> Some people told me that my computer will become > >>>> a complete speed demon. > >>>> I would like your opinion > >>> > >>> They are wrong. > >>> > >>> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the > >>> circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. > >>> > >>> > >>> Marcel > >>> > >> > >> So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? > >> That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. > >> So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on > >> waveform when in cassettes. > >> All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. > >> My new Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. > >> So I guess that it will load faster? > >> > >> What changes it might need? > > > > You likely will need to recode some of the I/O routines since they > > likely use timing loops to establish wait times. Tape interfaces are > > typically time oriented to recover the data. If you speed up the CPU it > > will shorten the time loops causing the interface to fail. > > > > If this drives a video interface, it likely is also dependent on timing > > by the CPU. Often they used a line frequency interrupt which triggered > > the CPU to output the bytes to the screen with a set timing. > > > > I did a little reading and it seems they used the V9938 video display > > chip. I expect this handles all the video timing, so as long as the > > clock to the video circuits remains the same, that should continue to work. > > > > You really need to get more info on how the system was designed. I see > > this was not one machine from one company, but rather a general computer > > spec that many companies built computers to. I see mentioned a 1chipMSX > > which was the entire computer logic in an FPGA. That would give you all > > the info you need if you could find the design documents for it. It > > also should put your 20 MHz Z80 to shame if you can find one. An FPGA > > implementation could potentially run at 50 to 100 MHz. > > > > It looks like there are blogs and other info available on the Internet. > > Maybe there are still some active groups? > > > > Here is an interesting link giving a brief overview of the MSX history. > > > > http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-happened-to-msx-computers/ > > > > -- > > > > Rick C > > > > It is a Phillips NMS machine > So the speed won't be much different due to the clock ? > > Also are the pinouts changed? > -- > > > ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- > http://usenet.sinaapp.com/I think you would get a lot more interest in your posts on sci.electronics.design .
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 07:36:22 +0200, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote:> Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: >> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. >>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the >>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. >>> What will happen? >> >> Nothing. >> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. >> >>> Some people told me that my computer will become >>> a complete speed demon. >>> I would like your opinion >> >> They are wrong. >> >> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the >> circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. >> >> >> Marcel >> >> > So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? > That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. > So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on > waveform when in cassettes. > All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. My new > Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. > So I guess that it will load faster? > What changes it might need?So, here's the deal: If you just put the chip in and don't change anything else, then there's a good chance that it'll work the same. Maybe a bit faster if the new Z80 makes more efficient use of clock cycles, but probably the same. You could boost the clock speed to 20MHz with appropriate changes to the oscillator circuit, but it's almost certain that your external memory and peripherals won't be able to keep up, because they're from the same era and price class as that 2MHz CPU. Even if you could just change the clock circuit, then you'd probably mess up whatever real-time aspects of the computer are there. This might be limited to the time-of-day clock going through an hour in 8 minutes, but if the thing generates video it might mean that your video will be totally screwed up. That computer's from an era where pauses in execution were timed by software delay loops, and those would be screwed up as well, so there's a good chance that any games would be screwed up. If you had some significant circuit design and software chops, and you had access to the original software, then you could make the change -- but you'd essentially be redesigning the whole computer. There's a good chance that even if you could get all the right parts that would fit in all the right holes on the board that you'd run into board limitations. Sorry to be so negative. If you want to try it out, go ahead. You'll learn something, and that's always worthwhile. -- Tim Wescott Control systems, embedded software and circuit design I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 8:09:20 PM UTC+2, Tim Wescott wrote:> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 07:36:22 +0200, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: > > > Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: > >> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: > >>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. > >>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the > >>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. > >>> What will happen? > >> > >> Nothing. > >> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. > >> > >>> Some people told me that my computer will become > >>> a complete speed demon. > >>> I would like your opinion > >> > >> They are wrong. > >> > >> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to the > >> circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. > >> > >> > >> Marcel > >> > >> > > So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? > > That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. > > So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on > > waveform when in cassettes. > > All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. My new > > Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. > > So I guess that it will load faster? > > What changes it might need? > > So, here's the deal: > > If you just put the chip in and don't change anything else, then there's > a good chance that it'll work the same. Maybe a bit faster if the new Z80 > makes more efficient use of clock cycles, but probably the same. > > You could boost the clock speed to 20MHz with appropriate changes to the > oscillator circuit, but it's almost certain that your external memory and > peripherals won't be able to keep up, because they're from the same era > and price class as that 2MHz CPU. > > Even if you could just change the clock circuit, then you'd probably mess > up whatever real-time aspects of the computer are there. This might be > limited to the time-of-day clock going through an hour in 8 minutes, but > if the thing generates video it might mean that your video will be > totally screwed up. That computer's from an era where pauses in > execution were timed by software delay loops, and those would be screwed > up as well, so there's a good chance that any games would be screwed up. > > If you had some significant circuit design and software chops, and you > had access to the original software, then you could make the change -- > but you'd essentially be redesigning the whole computer. There's a good > chance that even if you could get all the right parts that would fit in > all the right holes on the board that you'd run into board limitations. > > Sorry to be so negative. If you want to try it out, go ahead. You'll > learn something, and that's always worthwhile. > > -- > Tim Wescott > Control systems, embedded software and circuit design > I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested > http://www.wescottdesign.comI see. What I was afraid of was if I risk anything, for example if I risk to destroy the computer...We are talking about rare stuff...
Reply by ●December 21, 20162016-12-21
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:03:57 -0800, yassilis00 wrote:> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 8:09:20 PM UTC+2, Tim Wescott wrote: >> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 07:36:22 +0200, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >> >> > Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> Wrote in message: >> >> On 20.12.16 23.07, Vassilios Spiliopoulos wrote: >> >>> I have an msx 2 machine from 1986. >> >>> I bought new Zilog z80 CPUs that are 10x faster than what the >> >>> original ones are are I am thinking to replace them. >> >>> What will happen? >> >> >> >> Nothing. >> >> It will run at the clock speed of the attached crystal as before. >> >> >> >>> Some people told me that my computer will become >> >>> a complete speed demon. >> >>> I would like your opinion >> >> >> >> They are wrong. >> >> >> >> Running at significantly higher clock rate would require changes to >> >> the circuit and maybe also changes to the software for I/O drivers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Marcel >> >> >> >> >> > So, the circuit will have to be modified in order to install that? >> > That computer's integrated OS is Microsoft BASIC. >> > So all applications and games for it are on .Bas format and on >> > waveform when in cassettes. >> > All these software were designed to run on a Zilog z80 @ 2.5mhz. My >> > new Zilog z80 is on 20 mhz. >> > So I guess that it will load faster? >> > What changes it might need? >> >> So, here's the deal: >> >> If you just put the chip in and don't change anything else, then >> there's a good chance that it'll work the same. Maybe a bit faster if >> the new Z80 makes more efficient use of clock cycles, but probably the >> same. >> >> You could boost the clock speed to 20MHz with appropriate changes to >> the oscillator circuit, but it's almost certain that your external >> memory and peripherals won't be able to keep up, because they're from >> the same era and price class as that 2MHz CPU. >> >> Even if you could just change the clock circuit, then you'd probably >> mess up whatever real-time aspects of the computer are there. This >> might be limited to the time-of-day clock going through an hour in 8 >> minutes, but if the thing generates video it might mean that your video >> will be totally screwed up. That computer's from an era where pauses >> in execution were timed by software delay loops, and those would be >> screwed up as well, so there's a good chance that any games would be >> screwed up. >> >> If you had some significant circuit design and software chops, and you >> had access to the original software, then you could make the change -- >> but you'd essentially be redesigning the whole computer. There's a >> good chance that even if you could get all the right parts that would >> fit in all the right holes on the board that you'd run into board >> limitations. >> >> Sorry to be so negative. If you want to try it out, go ahead. You'll >> learn something, and that's always worthwhile. >> >> -- >> Tim Wescott Control systems, embedded software and circuit design I'm >> looking for work! See my website if you're interested >> http://www.wescottdesign.com > > I see. > What I was afraid of was if I risk anything, for example if I risk to > destroy the computer...We are talking about rare stuff...If the chip is soldered in and things work now, I would strongly suggest that you leave it alone. Particularly if the board has plated-through holes (it almost certainly has two or more layers) then it takes considerable expertise to get the chip out without damaging the board. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website!
