hi there I have a somewhat unortodox question regarding minimizing filesize. I want to be able to play files in winamp without having to use a special codec/plugin. And I am trying to find the absolute lowest filesize possible. Sound quality is not important. I convert PCM wav files into GSM WAV 6.10 using Adobe Audition. When I adjust the samplerate (for some reson the lowest rate winamp will play is 299hz) I can get 1 minute of audio with a filesize of 4kb. (GSM 6.10 WAV, MONO 16 BIT) For some reason the filesize is not reduced when I convert from 16 bit to 8 bit or even lower. I am aware that lower filesizes can be acieved using .ra or .vox but I would like to know if there is away to encode a wavfile and get an even lower filesize per minute than 4kb? It seems that Winamp interprest any wav file as 16 bit regardsless of the properties of the file. The resulting audio sounds most like low frequency rumble, but for my investigation this is not important - only the file size. I have looked for mp3 encoders but none seem to be able to encode below 8 khz... thanks in advance.
GSM WAV LOW FILESIZE QUESTION
Started by ●January 14, 2006
Reply by ●January 14, 20062006-01-14
type wrote:> hi there > > I have a somewhat unortodox question regarding minimizing filesize.... indeed.> Sound quality is not important.Does it have to be audible?> I convert PCM wav files into GSM WAV 6.10 using Adobe Audition. > When I adjust the samplerate (for some reson the lowest rate winamp will > play is 299hz) > I can get 1 minute of audio with a filesize of 4kb. (GSM 6.10 WAV, MONO 16 > BIT) > For some reason the filesize is not reduced when I convert from 16 bit to > 8 bit or even lower.299hz? For human speech to be sensible you'll need at the very least 2Khz. However, as for the 16 vs. 8 ... GSM doesn't store samples in a linear fashion like that. So it wouldn't reduce the file size at all.> I am aware that lower filesizes can be acieved using .ra or .vox but I > would like to know if there is away to encode a wavfile and get an even > lower filesize per minute than 4kb?you want a file that is 547 bps? I've read briefly about vocoders that could get there but I doubt they're highly inteligible.> It seems that Winamp interprest any wav file as 16 bit regardsless of the > properties of the file.Maybe the newer ones but Winamp 2.xx would play 8-bit PCM as 8-bit PCM.> The resulting audio sounds most like low frequency rumble, but for my > investigation this is not important - only the file size.??? I don't get the purpose here. You want a really low file size that cannot possibly store information you can use? I've got all the 32kbpm files you want here, just let me dd some from /dev/urandom!> I have looked for mp3 encoders but none seem to be able to encode below 8 > khz...Because there is no point. Tom
Reply by ●January 15, 20062006-01-15
> >type wrote: >> hi there >> >> I have a somewhat unortodox question regarding minimizing filesize. > >... indeed. > >> Sound quality is not important. > >Does it have to be audible? > >> I convert PCM wav files into GSM WAV 6.10 using Adobe Audition. >> When I adjust the samplerate (for some reson the lowest rate winampwill>> play is 299hz) >> I can get 1 minute of audio with a filesize of 4kb. (GSM 6.10 WAV, MONO16>> BIT) >> For some reason the filesize is not reduced when I convert from 16 bitto>> 8 bit or even lower. > >299hz? For human speech to be sensible you'll need at the very least >2Khz. > >However, as for the 16 vs. 8 ... GSM doesn't store samples in a linear >fashion like that. So it wouldn't reduce the file size at all. > >> I am aware that lower filesizes can be acieved using .ra or .vox but I >> would like to know if there is away to encode a wavfile and get aneven>> lower filesize per minute than 4kb? > >you want a file that is 547 bps? I've read briefly about vocoders that >could get there but I doubt they're highly inteligible. > >> It seems that Winamp interprest any wav file as 16 bit regardsless ofthe>> properties of the file. > >Maybe the newer ones but Winamp 2.xx would play 8-bit PCM as 8-bit PCM. > >> The resulting audio sounds most like low frequency rumble, but for my >> investigation this is not important - only the file size. > >??? > >I don't get the purpose here. You want a really low file size that >cannot possibly store information you can use? > >I've got all the 32kbpm files you want here, just let me dd some from >/dev/urandom! > >> I have looked for mp3 encoders but none seem to be able to encode below8>> khz... > >Because there is no point. > >TomThank you for the reply... Maybe my question was a bit unclear - I simply want to investigate the lowest possible filesize obtainable in a standard format that Winamp will be able to play? Dont worry about purpose:] Now: A 1 minute GSM 6.10 WAV file, mono and 8.0000khz file has a filesize of 95 kb. at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1 minute has a filesize of 4 kb. The question simply is: is there any way to make the filesize smaller? (maby using another format) And yes - there has to be audible sound. as for >/dev/urandom - one would need a linux system right? - I am using Windows.... thnx.
Reply by ●January 15, 20062006-01-15
type wrote:>>type wrote: >> >>>hi there >>> >>>I have a somewhat unortodox question regarding minimizing filesize. >> >>... indeed. >> >> >>>Sound quality is not important. >> >>Does it have to be audible? >> >> >>>I convert PCM wav files into GSM WAV 6.10 using Adobe Audition. >>>When I adjust the samplerate (for some reson the lowest rate winamp > > will > >>>play is 299hz) >>>I can get 1 minute of audio with a filesize of 4kb. (GSM 6.10 WAV, MONO > > 16 > >>>BIT) >>>For some reason the filesize is not reduced when I convert from 16 bit > > to > >>>8 bit or even lower. >> >>299hz? For human speech to be sensible you'll need at the very least >>2Khz. >> >>However, as for the 16 vs. 8 ... GSM doesn't store samples in a linear >>fashion like that. So it wouldn't reduce the file size at all. >> >> >>>I am aware that lower filesizes can be acieved using .ra or .vox but I >>>would like to know if there is away to encode a wavfile and get an > > even > >>>lower filesize per minute than 4kb? >> >>you want a file that is 547 bps? I've read briefly about vocoders that >>could get there but I doubt they're highly inteligible. >> >> >>>It seems that Winamp interprest any wav file as 16 bit regardsless of > > the > >>>properties of the file. >> >>Maybe the newer ones but Winamp 2.xx would play 8-bit PCM as 8-bit PCM. >> >> >>>The resulting audio sounds most like low frequency rumble, but for my >>>investigation this is not important - only the file size. >> >>??? >> >>I don't get the purpose here. You want a really low file size that >>cannot possibly store information you can use? >> >>I've got all the 32kbpm files you want here, just let me dd some from >>/dev/urandom! >> >> >>>I have looked for mp3 encoders but none seem to be able to encode below > > 8 > >>>khz... >> >>Because there is no point. >> >>Tom > > > Thank you for the reply... > > Maybe my question was a bit unclear - > > I simply want to investigate the lowest possible filesize obtainable in a > standard format that Winamp will be able to play? > > Dont worry about purpose:] > > Now: A 1 minute GSM 6.10 WAV file, mono and 8.0000khz file has a filesize > of 95 kb. > > at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1 minute > has a filesize of 4 kb.Might your disk sectors be 4 kb?> > The question simply is: is there any way to make the filesize smaller? > (maby using another format) > > And yes - there has to be audible sound. > > as for >/dev/urandom - one would need a linux system right? - I am using > Windows.... > > thnx.
Reply by ●January 15, 20062006-01-15
type wrote: ...> I simply want to investigate the lowest possible filesize obtainable in a > standard format that Winamp will be able to play? > > Dont worry about purpose:]What is the smallest file size your system can make for any purpose? Open a new page in Notepad, leave it blank, store it, and check the size. It will show zero bytes, but it must in fact be larger than that since it is stored. How large? 4K? On my system, maybe 8K. Jerry P.S. /dev/urandom is indeed UNIXspeak. It was intended as a snide joke. -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●January 16, 20062006-01-16
Richard Owlett wrote: <bigSnip>> > > > at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1 minute > > has a filesize of 4 kb. > > Might your disk sectors be 4 kb? > >Normally windows players will convert the file to 16 bit so that the plugins can manipulate the data. However - GSM compresses roughly from uLaw PCB (8 bit) in the ratio of 13.5 / 64 so: 299 * 60 = 17960 samples (or bytes of raw 8 bit PCM) 17960 * 13.5 / 64 = 3784 bytes or in round number terms 4Kb.... What about using a GSM halfrate codec? Regards Rocky
Reply by ●January 16, 20062006-01-16
Rocky wrote:> Richard Owlett wrote: > > <bigSnip> > >>>at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1 minute >>>has a filesize of 4 kb. >> >>Might your disk sectors be 4 kb? >> >> > > > Normally windows players will convert the file to 16 bit so that the > plugins can manipulate the data. > > However - GSM compresses roughly from uLaw PCB (8 bit) in the ratio of > 13.5 / 64 so: > 299 * 60 = 17960 samples (or bytes of raw 8 bit PCM) > 17960 * 13.5 / 64 = 3784 bytes or in round number terms 4Kb.... > > What about using a GSM halfrate codec? > Regards > Rocky >alright already :) might it not have been relevant? ;} I'm of the opinion that the only dumb question/theory is one not asked/proposed ;]
Reply by ●January 17, 20062006-01-17
Richard Owlett wrote:> Rocky wrote: > > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > <bigSnip> > > > >>>at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1 minute > >>>has a filesize of 4 kb. > >> > >>Might your disk sectors be 4 kb? > >> > >> > > > > > > Normally windows players will convert the file to 16 bit so that the > > plugins can manipulate the data. > > > > However - GSM compresses roughly from uLaw PCB (8 bit) in the ratio of > > 13.5 / 64 so: > > 299 * 60 = 17960 samples (or bytes of raw 8 bit PCM) > > 17960 * 13.5 / 64 = 3784 bytes or in round number terms 4Kb.... > > > > What about using a GSM halfrate codec? > > Regards > > Rocky > > > > > alright already :) > might it not have been relevant? ;} > > I'm of the opinion that the only dumb question/theory is one not > asked/proposed ;]Hi Richard, I did not mean to 'put down' your suggestion, the long story was more for the benefit of the OP. Also some others were also indicating that it might be related to sector or cluster size, but windows (XP) gives under properties both SizeOfFile and SizeOnDisk. I enjoy reading the questions you post and the responses you get. Regards Rocky
Reply by ●January 17, 20062006-01-17
> >Richard Owlett wrote: >> Rocky wrote: >> >> > Richard Owlett wrote: >> > >> > <bigSnip> >> > >> >>>at 299hz (for some reasson winamp wont play files at a lower hz) 1minute>> >>>has a filesize of 4 kb. >> >> >> >>Might your disk sectors be 4 kb? >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Normally windows players will convert the file to 16 bit so that the >> > plugins can manipulate the data. >> > >> > However - GSM compresses roughly from uLaw PCB (8 bit) in the ratioof>> > 13.5 / 64 so: >> > 299 * 60 = 17960 samples (or bytes of raw 8 bit PCM) >> > 17960 * 13.5 / 64 = 3784 bytes or in round number terms 4Kb.... >> > >> > What about using a GSM halfrate codec? >> > Regards >> > Rocky >> > >> >>I am thankfull for the answers, although I would like to remind you of the simplicity of the question - what audio fileformat would generate the lowest possible filesize and still be able to be played back in winamp - without users having to download a special codec? I dont know halfrate gsm, and havent found a place to donload a codec / encoder... tnhx
Reply by ●January 17, 20062006-01-17
Rocky wrote:>[snip] > > Hi Richard, > I did not mean to 'put down' your suggestion,U can't put me down, I'm upstanding ;] the long story was more> for the benefit of the OP. Also some others were also indicating that > it might be related to sector or cluster size, but windows (XP) gives > under properties both SizeOfFile and SizeOnDisk. > I enjoy reading the questions you post and the responses you get.I enjoy how far FAR OT posts go when I ask *SIMPLE* question ;} To return to topic ;) Not knowing what OS the OP was using, I wanted him to be aware that reported file size need not equal number of bytes written :) PS u cannt offend me, im purfact> Regards > Rocky >
