OT (sort of): Why such bad manners on comp.dsp?

Hi Guys,

  Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder 
why so many guys have no manners whatsoever 
when they post questions here on comp.dsp.

It seems to me that over the last year or so 
there have been an alarming number of posts where 
the poster writes something like:

  "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."

No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".

I wonder about the upbringing of guys who 
show no manners when asking strangers (we here) 
for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they 
grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration 
for other people, the notion of respect, and
the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.

Maybe the answer to my question is that these guys 
are merely proof that chimpanzees had sex with baboons.

See Ya,
[-Rick-]

"Rick Lyons" <R.Lyons@_BOGUS_ieee.org> wrote in message
news:44acfa5e.92694812@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
>   Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder
> why so many guys have no manners whatsoever
> when they post questions here on comp.dsp.
>
> It seems to me that over the last year or so
> there have been an alarming number of posts where
> the poster writes something like:
>
>   "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
>
> No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".
>
> I wonder about the upbringing of guys who
> show no manners when asking strangers (we here)
> for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they
> grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration
> for other people, the notion of respect, and
> the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.
>
> Maybe the answer to my question is that these guys
> are merely proof that chimpanzees had sex with baboons.
>
> See Ya,
> [-Rick-]
>
>

Personally, I'm not as offended by succinct questions as I am the many smart
ass replies I see frequently. Any time someone (innocently I think) posts a
non dsp question or quotes excessively or top posts or asks a qustion
covered by a faq, etc. there seems to always be some smart ass to post a
hateful reply. This combined with other frequently snotty and condescending
replies contributes to the general poor tone that is on the newsgroups these
days. My personal solution is I try not to post anything that I wouldn't say
to the person's face if they were sitting across from me.

-Clark

Rick Lyons wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>   Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder
> why so many guys have no manners whatsoever
> when they post questions here on comp.dsp.
>
> It seems to me that over the last year or so
> there have been an alarming number of posts where
> the poster writes something like:
>
>   "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
>
> No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".
>
> I wonder about the upbringing of guys who
> show no manners when asking strangers (we here)
> for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they
> grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration
> for other people, the notion of respect, and
> the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.
>
> Maybe the answer to my question is that these guys
> are merely proof that chimpanzees had sex with baboons.
>
> See Ya,
> [-Rick-]

My "favorite" that really makes my skin crawl is, "Plz Send Me ....."
That one makes we want to ask for their address so I can send them
something fresh out of the cat's box.

I think there are at least a few of reasons behind your all too true
observation.
1 - I suspect that there may be a cultural and or language barrier
2 - I don't think that proper grammar and sentence structure are
stressed in school like they used to be
3 - I think that politeness and formality have been in general decline
in society
4 - I also think that the anonymity of the internet makes it easier to
ignore standard social graces.

Rick Lyons wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>   Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder
> why so many guys have no manners whatsoever
> when they post questions here on comp.dsp.
>
> It seems to me that over the last year or so
> there have been an alarming number of posts where
> the poster writes something like:
>
>   "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
>
> No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".
>
> I wonder about the upbringing of guys who
> show no manners when asking strangers (we here)
> for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they
> grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration
> for other people, the notion of respect, and
> the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.

I think lots of these sorts of things could be caused by
people not being familiar with the English language or
subtleries of the Anglo-American culture/smalltalk.
Non-native English-speakers tend to use a word-for-word
translation that may come out wrong.

I have noted that lots of people use the term "required"
where "requested" may have been more proper. The words
are spelled very similarly, they might sound similar, and
for all I know, there may be languages where one word is
used to cover both the English terms. If this is the case,
somebody who struggles to formulate a post in English
and who needs the dictionary, might use the first English
word listed in the dictionary.

I remember having this problem when I tried to make myself
understood in Italian. The Norwegian word I used was
"trenger", present tense of the verb "=E5 trenge", "to need."
I looked up in the dictionary on "trenge" and found something.
What slipped my mind, was that "trenge" also means "force
one's way [through a crowd]". I don't know what whatever
I said became in Italian; it made no sense to anybody.

As long as the question is reasonable (not "solve my
homework for me" or "give me a thesis draft"), I don't mind.
As somebody else noted, smart-ass replies may be more
of a problem.=20

Rune

RL [Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:23:42 GMT]:
 >  "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
 >No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".

The homework assignment didn't come with a
"please explain", so neither does the re-
directed-to-here question.  But then this
is the internet, sort of, and there are all
kinds (you could lump them in two groups:
those you would avoid & those you wouldn't).
Anyway, thank yous contribute less to the
signal than does this.  thank you very much!

-- 
 40th Floor - Software  @  http://40th.com/
 iPlay : the ultimate audio player for mobiles
 mp3,mp4,m4a,aac,ogg,wma,flac,wav, play+record
 parametric eq, xfeed, reverb; all on a mobile

Noway2 wrote:
> My "favorite" that really makes my skin crawl is, "Plz Send Me ....."

I think the reason we see so many posts written that way is because kids 
these days (I must be an old codger) grew up on the Internet - 
specifically in chat rooms where that kind of "language" is common. 
It's quicker to type "plz" rather than "please", and perhaps that's 
appropriate for an ongoing real-time conversation.  But it sure sucks here.

The "procedural FAQ" ( http://users.erols.com/jyavins/procfaq.htm ) that 
Jerry hosts for us spells it out - "if you want us to take time to 
answer your question, you are required to take time to ask it."

-- 
Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com    (603) 226-0404 x536
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
   - Arthur C. Clarke

Rick Lyons wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> 
>   Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder 
> why so many guys have no manners whatsoever 
> when they post questions here on comp.dsp.
> 
> It seems to me that over the last year or so 
> there have been an alarming number of posts where 
> the poster writes something like:
> 
>   "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
> 
> No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".
> 
> I wonder about the upbringing of guys who 
> show no manners when asking strangers (we here) 
> for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they 
> grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration 
> for other people, the notion of respect, and
> the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.
> 
> Maybe the answer to my question is that these guys 
> are merely proof that chimpanzees had sex with baboons.
> 
> See Ya,
> [-Rick-]

Hi there, Rick!

I've been thinking about your question, and it's fizzing into a 
veritable froth of ideas. I recall walking down the corridor of a place 
I worked and passing sometimes dozens of people I knew and liked, 
without even a word or nod to or from any of them. Most of us were 
cogitating, and all of us were aware that even a minimum exchange of 
pleasantries would at least double the time to traverse the distance 
between here and there.

Of course, our actions were different upon popping into someone's lab, 
but if three or four people were there, we usually addressed at length 
only the one we'd come to see.

There's something about a work environment that suppresses most people's 
social activity. The queries we get here are at least colored by that 
bias. Remoteness and anonymity also play a part. When I enter a room (or 
a news group) with a bunch of strangers, I'm not moved to a cheery 
"Hello everybody!" I tend instead to get to the point: "Attention 
please! The kitchen will close in ten minutes."

Another influence is uncertainty about language. Sometimes, the fewer 
the words in it, the less likely an utterance is to go wrong. I recall 
someone trying to tell her hostess in French that either coffee or tea 
would be fine saying what turned out to be the equivalent of "I don't 
give a good God damn." The people at table were kind and let it pass 
unremarked. She didn't find out until later.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

This has been an interesting thread to me.  I think that part of the
reason for lack of introduction is that messages in newsgroups or
mailing lists are treated in the same sense as newspaper columns. The
important items should be first, where you have the readers attention,
and further details should follow.

Another part of the issue is that a person who is generally polite
about their first post has been reading the articles for some time, or
at least going through back articles looking for a possible answer to
the question, and so feels like a conversation has already been going
on with other participants.

It is most important to be able to succinctly ask a question.  I also
like it best when the answer is found; it should be posted as well, so
that it adds to the general knowledge.

I came to the comp.dsp newsgroup as a new DSP programmer, but a 20 year
veteran of newsgroups. I skim the newsgroups regularly, and don't
really have the time to spend on them that I might like.  Often I will
see questions that I might be able to answer but I don't have the
time to contribute.  The more concise the question, the more
interesting it is to spend time to come up with a concise answer.

Top posting vs bottom posting is an issue that I come out hating anyone
who complains about.  As I mentioned my description of newspaper
article structure before, I think top posting in news articles is the
way to go.  At first glance, you can tell if new information is worth
spending time on, or if you should just go on to the next article.
Text included from past articles should be trimmed to only include
enough information to carry on the discussion.

Rick Lyons wrote:

Hello everybody,

I came across this post on sci.engr.control; it gets high marks from me:

Hi to all,
              i want free meterial  about adaptive control, system
identification ,parameter estimation , i saw to purchase a book on
these topics but the cost is high  thats why iam requesting you all,
these are  urgent and necessary  to me
Thanks in Advance
kranthi.H

That's all of it. Can't you feel his struggle composing the message? I 
hope he gets some of what he needs.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Rick Lyons wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> 
>   Being the cranky ol fart that I am, I wonder 
> why so many guys have no manners whatsoever 
> when they post questions here on comp.dsp.
> 
> It seems to me that over the last year or so 
> there have been an alarming number of posts where 
> the poster writes something like:
> 
>   "Given ABC, what is the XYZ?  Explain."
> 
> No "Hello", no "please help me", no "Thank You".
> 
> I wonder about the upbringing of guys who 
> show no manners when asking strangers (we here) 
> for help.  Are they just "too lazy", or did they 
> grow up in a culture where the idea of consideration 
> for other people, the notion of respect, and
> the concept of manners do not exist?  I wonder.
> 
> Maybe the answer to my question is that these guys 
> are merely proof that chimpanzees had sex with baboons.
> 
> See Ya,
> [-Rick-]
> 
> 
I try to give more slack to to folks named something like 
'srinivasqunazicx' than 'bob jones' when I see those posts.  As has been 
pointed out here it can be a struggle to get _anything_ down at all in a 
foreign language; certainly a lot of the eastern folks seem to put 
'required' down inappropriately.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html