Randy Yates wrote:> Richard Owlett <rowlett@atlascomm.net> writes: > >>[...] >>Suggestions anyone? > > > Richard, > > Here's my $0.02, for what it's worth. Some of this may be stating > the obvious, so caveat reader.OK For us linguistic purists, should that be caveat lector -- OWL _ducks_ for cover ;)> > I have believed for a long time that becoming "good" at math is as > much a matter of confidence as it is intelligence. In fact, while I > won't quite say that ANYONE can be good at math, I belive the truth is > not far from this.If they can't be good, they should at least be competent. In Ryan's case, I think Fred's language metaphor is particularly appropriate.> > We also know math is also a layered subject: you need to know a in order > to understand b in order to understand c, ... . > > So I would think that helping a person in math consists of an iteration > of the following two basic procedures: > > 1. Learn and build confidence in the fundamentals.See my reply to Fred re wanting him to *WANT TO DO ROTE MEMORIZATION* ;)> 2. Proceed to the next level > > How do you help someone build confidence? I think that you start out at > the level they are comfortable with. Then make them work. This is perhaps > the hardest part - many folks (myself included) are lazy and don't want > to put in the work required. BUT THE LEVEL AT WHICH THEY ARE WORKING > SHOULD NEVER BE BEYOND THEIR MEANS - in this manner they build confidence > as they work. > > Things that I believe impede confidence-building: > > 1. Anger. > 2. Trivializing. > 3. > 3. Turning off the person with some personality problem or physical > problem (body odor?). > > Anyway, these seem to me to be basic, but that's exactly where learning > occurs.I'm not sure I could state how the above applies, BUT IT DOES! Not only is he ADHD, but he meets *ANY* criterion I've heard of for "at risk". Part of my chance of success is based on the fact that he does not _seem_ to see me as an "authority figure". He *KNOWS* I agree with them. And that I will "come down on him" if he violates certain standards. *BUT* I am still seen as separate.> > I may have told this story here before, but it may be helpful to repeat > it. I think one of the pivotal points in my childhood development towards > math came in the sixth grade where I was taught by a lady who had none > of the bad traits above and all of the good points. She was practical > (not an "ivory-tower academic"), likable, and "ad-hominem" - she never > gave me the feeling that she was looking down her nose at me (or any > of the rest of the class) but rather was holding our hands through a > journey she herself had to take at one time. Perhaps that makes all the > difference in the world.Reminds me of one of my high school math teachers. She could wilt the biggest football star by "looking at him". The "look" said "I was expecting more." Guess what. She got more! Her husband, the principal, was also special. Might that be why Webster, New York has a school named R. L. Thomas ;) Yepp, Mrs. Thomas was special to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[VERY ot] WEB sources of middle school MATH word problems
Started by ●October 21, 2006
Reply by ●October 22, 20062006-10-22
Reply by ●October 22, 20062006-10-22
PeteS wrote:> Randy Yates wrote: > >> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> writes: >> >> >>> Things that I believe impede confidence-building: >>> >>> 1. Anger. >>> 2. Trivializing. >>> 3. 3. Turning off the person with some personality problem or physical >>> problem (body odor?). >> >> >> >> Sorry, I hit send before I finished an edit to this list. >> 1. Anger. >> 2. Trivializing. "That's easy!" If the student says that, great, >> but the teacher never should. >> 3. Demeaning or patronizing, looking down one's nose at someone. >> 4. Turning off the person with some personality problem or physical >> problem (body odor?). > > > > Well, I taught post high-school and I met an incredibly wide range of > people. The places I taught were private tech schools, where the > students were, in general: > > a. Highschool grads who failed to make it to college and wanted to learn > b. Highschool grads who failed to make it to college and were told by > their parents to learn something > c. Older students who hadn't been to college but wanted to learn > something new > > I had students who ranged in age from 17 to 50. > > When faced with that, one uses all the tools available. One I found > incredibly useful was basic profiling (in it's best sense) - figure out > how the student thinks and then match the teaching style to it. > > I personally like the guidance of 'Type Talk' (available as a book - > maybe online) that follows the MBTI, and some other resources based on > the same ideas - Please understand me (available on the web, Kersey > et.al.) is a closely related set of ideas. > > Without going into whether it's appropriate or not, such profiling is an > enormous assistance when teaching someone who may not even wish to learn > (see b above). It worked for me, far more often than not.*DO NOT LEAVE ME HANGING* please please PRETTY PLEASE ;) Please give references or appropriate Google search terms. TIA> > As other noted, there's no one way to teach - and teaching is *not* > about imparting information - it's about getting the student to learn > *how to learn* first - the information part comes afterward. > > Cheers > > PeteS >
Reply by ●October 22, 20062006-10-22
Richard Owlett wrote:> PeteS wrote: > >> Randy Yates wrote: >> >>> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> writes: >>> >>> >>>> Things that I believe impede confidence-building: >>>> >>>> 1. Anger. >>>> 2. Trivializing. >>>> 3. 3. Turning off the person with some personality problem or >>>> physical >>>> problem (body odor?). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, I hit send before I finished an edit to this list. >>> 1. Anger. >>> 2. Trivializing. "That's easy!" If the student says that, great, >>> but the teacher never should. >>> 3. Demeaning or patronizing, looking down one's nose at someone. >>> 4. Turning off the person with some personality problem or physical >>> problem (body odor?). >> >> >> >> >> Well, I taught post high-school and I met an incredibly wide range of >> people. The places I taught were private tech schools, where the >> students were, in general: >> >> a. Highschool grads who failed to make it to college and wanted to learn >> b. Highschool grads who failed to make it to college and were told by >> their parents to learn something >> c. Older students who hadn't been to college but wanted to learn >> something new >> >> I had students who ranged in age from 17 to 50. >> >> When faced with that, one uses all the tools available. One I found >> incredibly useful was basic profiling (in it's best sense) - figure >> out how the student thinks and then match the teaching style to it. >> >> I personally like the guidance of 'Type Talk' (available as a book - >> maybe online) that follows the MBTI, and some other resources based on >> the same ideas - Please understand me (available on the web, Kersey >> et.al.) is a closely related set of ideas. >> >> Without going into whether it's appropriate or not, such profiling is >> an enormous assistance when teaching someone who may not even wish to >> learn (see b above). It worked for me, far more often than not. > > > > *DO NOT LEAVE ME HANGING* please please PRETTY PLEASE ;) > Please give references or appropriate Google search terms. > > TIA > > > > >> >> As other noted, there's no one way to teach - and teaching is *not* >> about imparting information - it's about getting the student to learn >> *how to learn* first - the information part comes afterward. >> >> Cheers >> >> PeteS >>Type talk is still only available as a book: http://www.amazon.com/Type-Talk-Personality-Types-Determine/dp/0440507049 _Well_ worth the money for anyone The site of the co-author of Please understand me http://www.keirsey.com/ There are other links available on the web - look for 'mbti' as a search term. That stands for 'Myers Briggs Type Indicator' which is incredibly useful when used properly and it's limitations understood (which is why I like Type Talk - it explains it very well). I did the MBTI some years ago and I found it enlightening. ENTP, of you are interested :) Cheers PeteS
Reply by ●October 22, 20062006-10-22
PeteS skrev:> > Type talk is still only available as a book: > http://www.amazon.com/Type-Talk-Personality-Types-Determine/dp/0440507049 > > _Well_ worth the money for anyoneNo way! That book is a disaster-in-a-box, if there ever was one. A few years ago I was interviewed for a job in a company that specializes in underwater equipment. All went well, I was in three separate interviews with different people internal to the company. We discussed various projects and various angles, and I thought this was one of few places where I found people who saw things the same way I did. Only one "formality" remained. I had to go to some psycho guy for a "type screening" like the stuff in the type-talk book. I turned out tho have three explicit *dis*qualifications for the position I had applied for: - I had the necesary skills - I knew at the time that I had the necessary skills - I wanted to use my skills in the job, as opposed to do what somebody else, who almost certainly did not have the professional background necessary to make a good decision, might tell me to do. In other words, this psycho dude judged me not sufficiently incompetent (that's right, *IN*competent) for the job. Needless to say, I did not get the job. That screening cost the company a project (the project they interviewed me for was cancelled a few month later) as well as a not entirely successful employment. Rune
Reply by ●October 22, 20062006-10-22
"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote in message news:12jnj3sl5uget40@corp.supernews.com... Hmmmm.... now I have to think harder because I've had pretty good luck teaching people "new" things but I'm not sure how I do it. I presided at a local computer club and often had to explain how things work to folks who had little background. Often I resort to analogies but don't ask me how I come up with them! I think the thought process is to see if I can't find something familiar enough that can be used to explain something otherwise hard to reach. Here is one of my favorites: Q: What's the difference between an antivirus program and a firewall? A: Think of the antivirus program as a *deaf* security guard at the door who checks everyone's ID as they come in (as in scanning emails and file downloads). Another duty of the *deaf* security guard is to walk through the building checking everyone's ID from time to time (a virus scan). However, because the security guard is deaf, he/she cannot hear someone coming in through the back door or a window. The job of the firewall is to put bars and locks on the other doors and windows (aka ports). People seem to like the description.... At least it helps them accept that the two tools are needed. Fred
Reply by ●October 24, 20062006-10-24
Richard Owlett wrote:> Fred Marshall wrote: > >> "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote in message >> news:12jl0erp1thda92@corp.supernews.com... >> >>> Why post here? >>> 1. If you weren't good at restating and solving you wouldn't be here ;) >>> 2. Many are parent/grand-parent/.... >>> 3. I'm an >60 bachelor needing help whose mother threatened him with >>> "kids JUST like him" :) >>> >>> I'm attempting to tutor a 15 yro ADHD male who has TOO GOOD A MEMORY. >>> [ He remembers _answers_ teacher got when solving homework for class. >>> He _DOES NOT_ remember process. ] >>> >>> I've done some *PRELIMINARY* Google searches. >>> >>> [ And just in case someone else is going in this direction, I like >>> http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.age.problems.html >>> http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/math/math.htm >>> http://mathforum.org/mathworld/ >>> http://www.jimloy.com/algebra/word4.htm >>> and for general info >>> http://mathforum.org/ >>> ] >>> >>> Suggestions anyone? >>> TIA >> >> >> >> Richard, >> >> Assuming that simple processes can be retained: > > > I don't think there is a general problem there. When he was getting > interested in polishing rocks, he gave a good description of the > process. Language skills is something else. > >> >> Yeah.... I've long held that math is much more about *language* than >> anything else. >> Try this: >> - Walk into a classroom of English-speaking kids where there are >> students who just "don't get it" (math). >> - Greet them with "Buenos dias". How many answer you or understand? >> Ask them. Ask them how they know that. Ask them when they learned >> that. Ask them if it's somehow mysterious now.... >> - Ask them what is the sum of all the integers from 1 to 6. Explain >> what you mean by integer if you need to. Get the answer from them. >> - Write on the board: sigma over i from 1 to 6. Ask them what it >> means. Tell them it means the same thing as the sum of all the >> integers from 1 to 6. >> Only the language and/or symbols have changed. >> So, if they understood the first question then they can learn to >> "read" the other form. There is nothing new except language. >> >> I hope this will take away some of the mystery of math. Goodness >> knows there is too much mystery associated with it. > > > I think I'll try that. Although he reads near grade level (if slowly), I > wonder if he has internalized the concept that "you read in order to > gain information". >While driving 100's of miles through *rural* AR and MO on graveyard shift, I've been thinking to expand on your idea. I'll greet him in French and Latin (my high school language of '57-'61) Your "summation" question. Pictures of single measures in Bass/Treble cleft [*HE* and family IS musical] Perhaps indications/chords of various " keys " I'm on shaky ground I know that "keys" exist ;) Now to where I'm on _very *THIN* ice_ a selection of pictographs of various things/relationships in the word problem. I'm thinking it may be useful to have an intermediate form between "English" and "Algebra". Ideas anyone. TIA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply by ●October 24, 20062006-10-24
Richard Owlett wrote:>I'll greet him in French and Latin (my high school language of '57-'61) >Your "summation" question. >Pictures of single measures in Bass/Treble cleft [*HE* and family IS >musical] >Perhaps indications/chords of various " keys " > I'm on shaky ground > I know that "keys" exist ;) >Hi Richard, I am really unsure if I can follow you here at all. Anyway it inspires me. The thing is that musical notation and musical concepts make much more sense to somebody who is playing music, than to somebody else (what a suprise;). Music theory books walk you through the different intervalls and chords and talk about things like tonal-centers, but by recognizing this things as something you know from praxis it becomes meaningfull. Mathematics are usually thought of something very theoretical, but it makes things probably much easier if you can relate some abstract ideas and notations to something practical. Most perceptual things for example are related to logarithms. How much effect does it have to add a fixed amount of salt? It depends. If there is no salt in your dish, maybe you immediately can tell if somebody adds a small amount. They same amount won't make a difference if there is a lot of salt there allready. The same as with pitch intervalls. Adding 10 Hz to 20Hz or 100Hz is not the same. Mmmh.. all I want to say is that it makes learning much easier if you can relate it to something which you know from experience, but in a much less formalized form. gr. Anton
Reply by ●October 24, 20062006-10-24
>Richard Owlett wrote: >>I'll greet him in French and Latin (my high school language of '57-'61) >>Your "summation" question. >>Pictures of single measures in Bass/Treble cleft [*HE* and family IS >>musical] >>Perhaps indications/chords of various " keys " >> I'm on shaky ground >> I know that "keys" exist ;) >> > >Hi Richard, > >I am really unsure if I can follow you here at all. >Anyway it inspires me. The thing is that musical >notation and musical concepts make much more sense to somebody >who is playing music, than to somebody else (what a suprise;). >Music theory books walk you through the different intervalls and chords >and talk about things like tonal-centers, but by recognizing this things >as something you know from praxis it becomes meaningfull. >Mathematics are usually thought of something very theoretical, but >it makes things probably much easier if you can relate some abstract >ideas and notations to something practical. >Most perceptual things for example are related to logarithms. >How much effect does it have to add a fixed amount of salt? >It depends. If there is no salt in your dish, maybe you immediately >can tell if somebody adds a small amount. They same amount won't make >a difference if there is a lot of salt there allready. >The same as with pitch intervalls. Adding 10 Hz to 20Hz or 100Hz is not >the same. Mmmh.. all I want to say is that it makes learning >much easier if you can relate it to something which you know from >experience, but in a much less formalized form. > >gr. >Anton >To put it in different words: My example with logarithms was just to say that people are allready using logarithmic scales independent of if they know what a logarithm is or what the algebraic properties of logarithms are. If it is possible to make a connection to this kind of implicit "knowledge" while you try to grasp a problem from a more abstract side, it makes it easier.
Reply by ●October 25, 20062006-10-25
banton wrote:> Richard Owlett wrote: > >>I'll greet him in French and Latin (my high school language of '57-'61) >>Your "summation" question. >>Pictures of single measures in Bass/Treble cleft [*HE* and family IS >>musical] >>Perhaps indications/chords of various " keys " >> I'm on shaky ground >> I know that "keys" exist ;) >> > > > Hi Richard, > > I am really unsure if I can follow you here at all.Sometimes I don't follow me ;)> Anyway it inspires me. The thing is that musical > notation and musical concepts make much more sense to somebody > who is playing music, than to somebody else (what a suprise;).You may be interested in the work of Zolt�n Kod�ly (1882-1967), a Hungarian composer and educator. His interest was music education but his teaching methods evidently promote math and language skills. http://oake.org/ Isaac Stern has said: "� a proper teaching of musical disciplines to children starting at the age of five, six, or seven in an intellectually applied system by highly skilled and educated teachers results in the areas of memory, logic, understanding of mathematical formulas, and reading abilities going right off the graph." The Instrumentalist, April 1993 [as quoted on http://oake.org/php/meetingnationalstandards.php]> Music theory books walk you through the different intervalls and chords > and talk about things like tonal-centers, but by recognizing this things > as something you know from praxis it becomes meaningfull. > Mathematics are usually thought of something very theoretical, but > it makes things probably much easier if you can relate some abstract > ideas and notations to something practical. > Most perceptual things for example are related to logarithms. > How much effect does it have to add a fixed amount of salt? > It depends. If there is no salt in your dish, maybe you immediately > can tell if somebody adds a small amount. They same amount won't make > a difference if there is a lot of salt there allready. > The same as with pitch intervalls. Adding 10 Hz to 20Hz or 100Hz is not > the same. Mmmh.. all I want to say is that it makes learning > much easier if you can relate it to something which you know from > experience, but in a much less formalized form. > > gr. > Anton > >My reason was to get across that spoken, written, or graphic symbols convey information. I'm still wondering if he has internalized the concept that "you read in order to gain information".
Reply by ●October 25, 20062006-10-25
Richard Owlett wrote: ...> My reason was to get across that spoken, written, or graphic symbols > convey information. I'm still wondering if he has internalized the > concept that "you read in order to gain information".Do some of your communicating with him using written notes. An arbitrary game can be irksome, but may be useful anyhow. A standard place for him to fins a note from you of the form "Meet me in room xx at 11:05" could be a beginning. Jerry -- "The rights of the best of men are secured only as the rights of the vilest and most abhorrent are protected." - Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes, 1927 ���������������������������������������������������������������������
