OT: Train Drivers and Engineers

I heard that in America Engineers are train drivers - is this true?  Does
this not prevent people from studying engineering i.e. the thought of it not
being a profession?
A similar problem exists in the UK,NZ and Australia where anybody calls
themselves an engineer from a plumber to a toilet cleaner.

Tam



-- 
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On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:37:28 +1300, "Tam Heid the Baw- goal!"
<Tam@heidin.com> wrote:

>I heard that in America Engineers are train drivers - is this true? 

No.  It's the other way around.  Train drivers are called engineers.
But engineers (the kind who do engineering work) are also called
engineers.

>Does
>this not prevent people from studying engineering i.e. the thought of it not
>being a profession?

No, what prevents people from studying engineering is the fact that they
can make a whole lot more money by studying other things and following
career paths other than engineering.

Greg

Greg Berchin wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:37:28 +1300, "Tam Heid the Baw- goal!"
> <Tam@heidin.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>I heard that in America Engineers are train drivers - is this true? 
> 
> 
> No.  It's the other way around.  Train drivers are called engineers.
> But engineers (the kind who do engineering work) are also called
> engineers.
> 

It's worse. Firemen can call themselves engineers. Train drivers can 
call themselves engineers. However, engineers with a university degree 
are (in most states) not allowed to call themselves engineers because 
some bureaucrats said so. It's called license law. Rather ridiculous IMHO.

> 
>>Does
>>this not prevent people from studying engineering i.e. the thought of it not
>>being a profession?
> 
> 
> No, what prevents people from studying engineering is the fact that they
> can make a whole lot more money by studying other things and following
> career paths other than engineering.
> 

If you want to make money you select other professions. Preferably one 
that can't be outsourced. Doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc. Although there 
is a growing trend of traveling to other countries for expensive treatments.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:5pDjh.17826$QU1.11716@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> Greg Berchin wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:37:28 +1300, "Tam Heid the Baw- goal!"
> > <Tam@heidin.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I heard that in America Engineers are train drivers - is this true?
> >
> >
> > No.  It's the other way around.  Train drivers are called engineers.
> > But engineers (the kind who do engineering work) are also called
> > engineers.
> >
>
> It's worse. Firemen can call themselves engineers. Train drivers can
> call themselves engineers. However, engineers with a university degree
> are (in most states) not allowed to call themselves engineers because
> some bureaucrats said so. It's called license law. Rather ridiculous IMHO.
>
> >
> >>Does
> >>this not prevent people from studying engineering i.e. the thought of it
not
> >>being a profession?
> >
> >
> > No, what prevents people from studying engineering is the fact that they
> > can make a whole lot more money by studying other things and following
> > career paths other than engineering.
> >
>
> If you want to make money you select other professions. Preferably one
> that can't be outsourced. Doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc. Although there
> is a growing trend of traveling to other countries for expensive
treatments.
>
> -- 

In France for instance the word is Ingenious I think which comes from
Ingenious - makes more sense. Also in Germany and Asia Engineering came from
the professions rather than the trades. As a mater of interest - what
happens to those with a degree who cannot call themselves an engineer? What
do they call themselves - a Scientist?


Tam



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tam Heid the Baw- goal! wrote:

   ...

> In France for instance the word is Ingenious I think which comes from
> Ingenious - makes more sense. Also in Germany and Asia Engineering came from
> the professions rather than the trades. As a mater of interest - what
> happens to those with a degree who cannot call themselves an engineer? What
> do they call themselves - a Scientist?

In English, the word originally meant someone who works with engines, 
another name for machine. Some design them, some operate them. 
Locomotive is short for locomotive engine, and the people who run those 
things are engineers. That some people who collect garbage call 
themselves sanitary engineers is a travesty, but a lot of other things 
are too.

Anybody, even people with engineering degrees, can describe himself as 
an engineer and his profession as engineer. What people without licenses 
to practice engineering may not do is advertise their services as 
engineers. I don't have a Professional Engineer license, so I can't sign 
off on plans for structures or building wiring. I may not claim in print 
that am an engineer, but I may offer to provide engineering design 
services. The US is not alone in enforcing this distinction.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:LvGdnSk6Ob8HxhLYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@rcn.net...
> Tam Heid the Baw- goal! wrote:
>
>    ...
>
> > In France for instance the word is Ingenious I think which comes from
> > Ingenious - makes more sense. Also in Germany and Asia Engineering came
from
> > the professions rather than the trades. As a mater of interest - what
> > happens to those with a degree who cannot call themselves an engineer?
What
> > do they call themselves - a Scientist?
>
> In English, the word originally meant someone who works with engines,
> another name for machine.

I always thought that to engineer a solution was to solve a problem or to
'invent' a solution even though one didn't exist at present. In Victorian
Britain Engineers designed things - engines but also bridges etc. Brunell
was a famous engineer - he even designed the great Eastern I think - a ship.


Tam



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Jerry Avins wrote:
> 
> 
> In English, the word originally meant someone who works with engines, 
> another name for machine. 
> 

I believe the word is French in origin. The original "engineers" were 
military - designing and building fortifications and weapons in medieval 
times. /Plus �a change.../

Paul

Paul Russell wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>>
>> In English, the word originally meant someone who works with engines, 
>> another name for machine.
> 
> I believe the word is French in origin. The original "engineers" were 
> military - designing and building fortifications and weapons in medieval 
> times. /Plus �a change.../

There's no conflict with what I wrote. A trebuchet is an engine of war; 
shear legs (lifting engines) were used in the construction of 
fortifications. The usage in civilian pursuits was heavily influenced by 
mine pumps, called pumping engines and later called steam engines. 
"Engine" became almost a synonym for "motor" rather than "machine". The 
term "engineer" carries echoes of all those usages.

Aside from military engineering, there was also civil engineering. I 
don't know what bridge builders were called, but millwrights designed 
and constructed many different kinds of buildings. Architects were not 
only designers, but what we would now call general contractors.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:22:19 -0500, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:

>Paul Russell wrote:
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> In English, the word originally meant someone who works with engines, 
>>> another name for machine.
>> 
>> I believe the word is French in origin. The original "engineers" were 
>> military - designing and building fortifications and weapons in medieval 
>> times. /Plus &#4294967295;a change.../
>
>There's no conflict with what I wrote. A trebuchet is an engine of war; 
>shear legs (lifting engines) were used in the construction of 
>fortifications. The usage in civilian pursuits was heavily influenced by 
>mine pumps, called pumping engines and later called steam engines. 
>"Engine" became almost a synonym for "motor" rather than "machine". The 
>term "engineer" carries echoes of all those usages.
>
>Aside from military engineering, there was also civil engineering. I 
>don't know what bridge builders were called, but millwrights designed 
>and constructed many different kinds of buildings. Architects were not 
>only designers, but what we would now call general contractors.
>
>Jerry

It has been my understanding that the etymology of "engine" and
"ingenious" are closely tied together.   To me this has always just
mean that historically "engineers" are those who do the "ingenious"
work to make the "engines", whatever they may be.

I've also been told that in some Central and South American countries
that "Engineer" is also a respected title, i.e., it comes before your
name in a salutation, similar to "Doctor".   So, instead of "Dr.
Jones" one could be "Engineer Smith".

Maybe somebody can substantiate or refute that.  Interesting in any
case (well, to me, anyway).  ;)

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

Eric Jacobsen wrote:
> 
> I've also been told that in some Central and South American countries
> that "Engineer" is also a respected title, i.e., it comes before your
> name in a salutation, similar to "Doctor".   So, instead of "Dr.
> Jones" one could be "Engineer Smith".
> 

I hadn't heard that about South America, but I had heard a smilar thing 
about Germany, i.e. that Engineer is a title in Germany, along with 
Professor, Doctor, etc. Do we have any German comp.dspers who can 
confirm this ?

Paul