Hi Folks, Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound so loud versus the normal program material? I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something will sound to a human. -- % Randy Yates % "Midnight, on the water... %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % I saw... the ocean's daughter." %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Can't Get It Out Of My Head' %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % *El Dorado*, Electric Light Orchestra http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Perceived Loudness
Started by ●February 16, 2007
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
"Analysis of the Meter of Acoustic Musical Signals" by Anssi Klapuri has a small discussion on the loudness Weber effect and human perception in Section II A. Perhaps you wont get a direct answer however the paper is quiet informative in understanding certain psychoacoustic phenomenons. Hope it helps. On Feb 16, 3:17 pm, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote:> Hi Folks, > > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound > so loud versus the normal program material? > > I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio > (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but > don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something > will sound to a human. > -- > % Randy Yates % "Midnight, on the water... > %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % I saw... the ocean's daughter." > %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Can't Get It Out Of My Head' > %%%% <y...@ieee.org> % *El Dorado*, Electric Light Orchestrahttp://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
Hey, Do a search on "zwicker loudness model", that should be useful. On Feb 16, 8:17 am, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote:> Hi Folks, > > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound > so loud versus the normal program material? > > I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio > (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but > don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something > will sound to a human. > -- > % Randy Yates % "Midnight, on the water... > %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % I saw... the ocean's daughter." > %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Can't Get It Out Of My Head' > %%%% <y...@ieee.org> % *El Dorado*, Electric Light Orchestrahttp://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
On Feb 16, 8:17 am, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote:> Hi Folks, > > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound > so loud versus the normal program material?Hello Randy, I think the TV commercials may be so overdriven that you may only need to detect if the audio waveform has flat tops to it! Clay
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
On 16 Feb., 14:17, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote:> Hi Folks, > > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound > so loud versus the normal program material? > > I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio > (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but > don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something > will sound to a human.Good question. Peak-To-RMS would be my first approach. Another could be histogram based analysis. Perhaps with some prior psychoacoustic weighting (after all, DC has the highest Peak-To-RMS ratio, and is inaudible). Regards, Andor
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
On Feb 16, 2:32 pm, "Andor" <andor.bari...@gmail.com> wrote:> On 16 Feb., 14:17, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that > > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You > > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound > > so loud versus the normal program material? > > > I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio > > (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but > > don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something > > will sound to a human. > > Good question. Peak-To-RMS would be my first approach. Another could > be histogram based analysis. Perhaps with some prior psychoacoustic > weighting (after all, DC has the highest Peak-To-RMS ratio, and is > inaudible). > > Regards, > AndorHi Randy, I'd try looking here.. http://www.dorrough.com Dorrough's specializes in that. I'd also ask over at rec.audio.pro. (my other favorite group) Mark
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
"Andor" <andor.bariska@gmail.com> writes:> On 16 Feb., 14:17, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that >> discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You >> know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound >> so loud versus the normal program material? >> >> I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio >> (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but >> don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something >> will sound to a human. > > Good question. Peak-To-RMS would be my first approach. Another could > be histogram based analysis. Perhaps with some prior psychoacoustic > weighting (after all, DC has the highest Peak-To-RMS ratio, and is > inaudible).I am also tempted to go it myself, but before I get to the point where I've spent several days or weeks realizing it ain't so easy, I thought I'd check to see if the wheel had already been invented. -- % Randy Yates % "My Shangri-la has gone away, fading like %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % the Beatles on 'Hey Jude'" %%% 919-577-9882 % %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Shangri-La', *A New World Record*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> writes:> On Feb 16, 2:32 pm, "Andor" <andor.bari...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 16 Feb., 14:17, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote: >> >> > Hi Folks, >> >> > Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that >> > discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You >> > know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound >> > so loud versus the normal program material? >> >> > I'm aware of the basic issues such as peak-to-average power ratio >> > (i.e., the effect of compression) and dynamic range differences, but >> > don't know what actually "works" in predicting how "loud" something >> > will sound to a human. >> >> Good question. Peak-To-RMS would be my first approach. Another could >> be histogram based analysis. Perhaps with some prior psychoacoustic >> weighting (after all, DC has the highest Peak-To-RMS ratio, and is >> inaudible). >> >> Regards, >> Andor > > Hi Randy, > > I'd try looking here.. > > http://www.dorrough.com > > Dorrough's specializes in that. > > I'd also ask over at rec.audio.pro. (my other favorite group)Thanks Mark, but I'm looking for algorithms, not instruments. That is, I need to implement this myself. -- % Randy Yates % "Rollin' and riding and slippin' and %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % sliding, it's magic." %%% 919-577-9882 % %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Living' Thing', *A New World Record*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
"Clay" <physics@bellsouth.net> writes:> On Feb 16, 8:17 am, Randy Yates <y...@ieee.org> wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> Does anyone know of any good algorithms, papers, web sites, etc., that >> discuss ways to determine the perceived loudness of an audio source? You >> know, like detecting those nasty over-compressed commercials that sound >> so loud versus the normal program material? > > Hello Randy, > > I think the TV commercials may be so overdriven that you may only need > to detect if the audio waveform has flat tops to it!You bring up a good point, Clay. I should probably take at least a cursory look at some examples and see if it really is that easy. -- % Randy Yates % "And all that I can do %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % is say I'm sorry, %%% 919-577-9882 % that's the way it goes..." %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % Getting To The Point', *Balance of Power*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●February 16, 20072007-02-16
"mobi" <mobien@gmail.com> writes:> "Analysis of the Meter of Acoustic Musical Signals" by Anssi Klapuri > has a small discussion on the loudness Weber effect and human > perception in Section II A. Perhaps you wont get a direct answer > however the paper is quiet informative in understanding certain > psychoacoustic phenomenons. > > Hope it helps.Thank you both, mobi and Ikaro. --Randy -- % Randy Yates % "Ticket to the moon, flight leaves here today %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % from Satellite 2" %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Ticket To The Moon' %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % *Time*, Electric Light Orchestra http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
