What Has Happened To This Group?

Fellow comp.dsp'ers,

I'm worried about this group. The vibrant, fruitful,
full-of-good-information group this used to be even just 3 or 4 years
ago seems to be fading fast.

This group has been around since at least 1993, and has been two
orders of magnitude more "interesting" than it is today.

What's happened? Are those $&@*(@ web-based groups taking over in
popularity?  Are new people ignorant of usenet? Is the DSP population
shrinking? 

I'd like to hear from you: Do you agree with my assessment? Do you
have any ideas why it is happening?
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "How's life on earth? 
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %  ... What is it worth?" 
%%% 919-577-9882                % 'Mission (A World Record)', 
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           % *A New World Record*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

On Sep 13, 12:09 pm, Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Fellow comp.dsp'ers,
>
> I'm worried about this group. The vibrant, fruitful,
> full-of-good-information group this used to be even just 3 or 4 years
> ago seems to be fading fast.
>
> This group has been around since at least 1993, and has been two
> orders of magnitude more "interesting" than it is today.
>
> What's happened? Are those $&@*(@ web-based groups taking over in
> popularity?  Are new people ignorant of usenet? Is the DSP population
> shrinking?
>
> I'd like to hear from you: Do you agree with my assessment? Do you
> have any ideas why it is happening?
> --
> %  Randy Yates                  % "How's life on earth?
> %% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %  ... What is it worth?"
> %%% 919-577-9882                % 'Mission (A World Record)',
> %%%% <ya...@ieee.org>           % *A New World Record*, ELOhttp://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Although Google exists for NGs many ISPs have dumped NGs altogether
and sites like YouTube and Myspace are taking over.
What would be good is to have Youtube tutorials on various processors
lets say (or whatever!).

Hardy

On Sep 12, 5:09 pm, Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Fellow comp.dsp'ers,
>
> I'm worried about this group. The vibrant, fruitful,
> full-of-good-information group this used to be even just 3 or 4 years
> ago seems to be fading fast.
>
> This group has been around since at least 1993, and has been two
> orders of magnitude more "interesting" than it is today.
>
> What's happened?
People prefer forums.  One can include data other than just text in
most forums.  I use forums most of the time.

 Are those $&@*(@ web-based groups taking over in
> popularity?
Do you mean $&@*(@  forums taking over?  Yes.

>  Are new people ignorant of usenet?
Yes

> Is the DSP population shrinking?
I don't think so.  Those that have at this for a while have other
problems, the topics don't interest them or aren't willing to share
their answers.
>
> I'd like to hear from you: Do you agree with my assessment?
This group is still active.  sci.engr.control is dead.

> Do you > have any ideas why it is happening?
See the above.

Peter Nachtwey

pnachtwey@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 12, 5:09 pm, Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> Fellow comp.dsp'ers,
>>
>> I'm worried about this group. The vibrant, fruitful,
>> full-of-good-information group this used to be even just 3 or 4 years
>> ago seems to be fading fast.
>>
>> This group has been around since at least 1993, and has been two
>> orders of magnitude more "interesting" than it is today.
>>
>> What's happened?
> People prefer forums.  One can include data other than just text in
> most forums.  I use forums most of the time.

I assume you mean web based forums. Some people prefer web based forums, 
but I think its wrong to generalise. Personally, I will only post on one 
when all alternatives have been exhausted.

The key problem with forums is they are either war zones or moderated 
like crazy to stop them becoming war zones. For some reason the 
psychology of forums incites the worst behaviour of any form of internet 
communication - which is really saying something. :-)

Any type of forum can become a war zone. IRC and news groups frequently 
do. Mailing lists less often. However, many IRC channels and news groups 
manage to survive as largely sane places without the need for moderation.

>  Are those $&@*(@ web-based groups taking over in
>> popularity?
> Do you mean $&@*(@  forums taking over?  Yes.

For plebby activities they have certainly taken over, but the more 
technical things get, the less they seem to be used.

>>  Are new people ignorant of usenet?
> Yes

Well, most people are just plain ignorant. :-)

>> Is the DSP population shrinking?
> I don't think so.  Those that have at this for a while have other
> problems, the topics don't interest them or aren't willing to share
> their answers.

I think the amount of pre-packaged DSP has increased. People from time 
to time say to me "I need an X" where X might be a filter which certain 
characteristics, a signal detector, or some such component. If I give 
them a chunk of C to do the job, they slip it into their MCU code, and 
voila - they have a DSP application with absolutely zero understanding. 
This gets the job done in an efficient way, so its a good thing. 
However, for various reasons things couldn't work like that in the past, 
so people - even ones with little signal processing knowledge - had to 
get more involved.

90%+ of the DSP industry employs only a handful of engineers, and a 
handful of designs, as its all about high volumes of a few products.

>> I'd like to hear from you: Do you agree with my assessment?

What exactly to you hope to get out of a group like this? Its great for 
rambling discourses on the meaning for Dirac's life and work, or whether 
Shannon or Nyquist would have been the one to walk away from the OK 
Corral. :-)

> This group is still active.  sci.engr.control is dead.

I think the porn newsgroups have gone badly downhill in recent years, too.

>> Do you > have any ideas why it is happening?
> See the above.

I think a lot more people have homework problems these days. Maybe there 
are more people on DSP and digital comms courses, and less practicing 
engineers. Maybe if the people on the courses practiced more, instead of 
looking for pre-packaged answers, they would become better practicing 
engineers.

I just hope my kids don't show an interest in engineering as they get older.

Regards,
Steve

On 13 Sep, 04:51, Steve Underwood <ste...@dis.org> wrote:.
>
> >  Are those $&@*(@ web-based groups taking over in
> >> popularity?
> > Do you mean $&@*(@  forums taking over?  Yes.
>
> For plebby activities they have certainly taken over, but the more
> technical things get, the less they seem to be used.

I think the key term is "technical." People don't want to
learn technology anymore, they yust want to do "fun" stuff.
Like these questions lik "how can I filter out the voice
of the female 3rd supporting actor in this movie?"

> >>  Are new people ignorant of usenet?
> > Yes
>
> Well, most people are just plain ignorant. :-)

True.

> >> Is the DSP population shrinking?
> > I don't think so.  Those that have at this for a while have other
> > problems, the topics don't interest them or aren't willing to share
> > their answers.
>
> I think the amount of pre-packaged DSP has increased. People from time
> to time say to me "I need an X" where X might be a filter which certain
> characteristics, a signal detector, or some such component. If I give
> them a chunk of C to do the job, they slip it into their MCU code, and
> voila - they have a DSP application with absolutely zero understanding.
> This gets the job done in an efficient way, so its a good thing.
> However, for various reasons things couldn't work like that in the past,
> so people - even ones with little signal processing knowledge - had to
> get more involved.
>
> 90%+ of the DSP industry employs only a handful of engineers, and a
> handful of designs, as its all about high volumes of a few products.

That's part of the reason. The other part is that all those nifty
"advanced" methods just don't work when put to real-life use.

> >> I'd like to hear from you: Do you agree with my assessment?
>
> What exactly to you hope to get out of a group like this? Its great for
> rambling discourses on the meaning for Dirac's life and work, or whether
> Shannon or Nyquist would have been the one to walk away from the OK
> Corral. :-)

The fact that such questions so regularly raise such heated
wars is *the* symptom why this newsgroup goes downhill.
People only slightly beyond beginning levels who drop in here
during one of those wars are lost to comp.dsp forever. Those
at the beginning levels who drop in here during one of those
wars, are probably lost to the profession forever.

And of course, the fact that so many people have such fundamental
struggles with the basics don't help much what raising the level
of the topics to be discussed is concernd.

Rune

That's new plug-n-play attitude. Give me exact source and I will put
it in my stuff today, so can sell product tomorrow. No any wish to
_understand_ the Nature of things. Fast-life, fast-food way, you
know ...

Kind russian regards,
Yuri

Jep... 
The average person doing "cool" software, services, YouTube, you name it
- knows how to code Flash / PHP / perl / visual basic ... code
- Has heard about C++
- knows little about plain old C
- has no clue about assembly language 
- has a faint idea how the computer works
- knows that there is a microprocessor and sure it's running hot
- hasn't seen a transistor in his life
- semiconductor technology? Quantum physics anybody?

Well, I guess one has to draw the line somewhere, and it's continuously
moving to "higher levels". 

Don't get me wrong, my point is not to promote ignorance. But IMO it's a
natural evolution, put things into little black boxes and reuse them
without worrying about what happens inside.

In the majority of cases the process is straightforward. In some cases
it's not, and those are just a bit slower to catch up. 
For example, there are still quite many people who hand-code assembly
language ARM code. But the trend is clearly towards higher level
languages.

Or take matlab etc. For example, I can use FFT without actually knowing
how it's implemented. 
As long as I understand what it does, it is probably good enough to get
the work done. Actually, if given the choice, I'd rather spend my time
learning how to -use- it, than how to -implement- it.

But as said, this is not meant to give an excuse for cheating with
homework problems...
 
-Markus

ytregubov@yahoo.com wrote:
> That's new plug-n-play attitude. Give me exact source and I will put
> it in my stuff today, so can sell product tomorrow. No any wish to
> _understand_ the Nature of things. Fast-life, fast-food way, you
> know ...

Not just products. "Give me the code so I can make a low-pass filter and 
finish my thesis. Then I can get my degree and say, 'Now I are one.'"

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"mnentwig" <mnentwig@elisanet.fi> writes:
> [...]
> The average person doing "cool" software, services, YouTube, you name it
> - hasn't seen a transistor in his life
> - semiconductor technology? Quantum physics anybody?

I guess velocity saturation and other short-channel effects in enhancement
mode MOSFETs are beyond him as well? :)
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "Maybe one day I'll feel her cold embrace,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %                    and kiss her interface, 
%%% 919-577-9882                %            til then, I'll leave her alone."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %        'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO   
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

ytregubov@yahoo.com wrote:
> That's new plug-n-play attitude. Give me exact source and I will put
> it in my stuff today, so can sell product tomorrow. No any wish to
> _understand_ the Nature of things. Fast-life, fast-food way, you
> know ...
> 
> Kind russian regards,
> Yuri
> 

There is nothing inherently wrong with what you describe. Its actually a 
good thing. We would never design anything complex if we had to 
understand every building block in great detail.

An example. I was playing with a little ECG gadget today, which I made 
some input to. The designer isn't a DSP person, and every time he tried 
to use cookbook approaches to the digital filtering the compute was too 
much for the MCU involved. I cooked up a C routine giving adequate 
filtering with a lot less compute, he plugged it in, and the device 
worked pretty well. Now, he doesn't understand the filter, but on the 
other hand I have only a weak idea about the kind of signal you get from 
a human heart, and how you can pick that up with an amp. Specialisation 
is good.

The problems come when someone has little or no knowledge of how the 
things in their own field of expertise work - e.g. Matlab junkies in the 
DSP world.


Steve