Suggestions for Correcting Abuses

Dear Colleagues, 
I’ve had my DSP book online for some time and receive 10-15 unsolicited
questions each week.   I don’t know the answer to about 60% of these,
and often suggest that the questions be posted on Comp.DSP.  However, I
only recently started to actively participate in the discussions myself.  
The quality of the technical material is simply outstanding.  The majority
of the posts contain accurate and insightful answers– really top notch. 
Comp.DSP is an enormously valuable asset to the technical community and
those that donate their time and skills should be very proud of it.    

However, there is something very disturbing– the postings are often
grossly unprofessional. This is an unmoderated discussion and some abuses
must be tolerated, but not to the level that currently appears.  It is
commonplace to see posts that are rude, condescending, or borderline
abusive.  Occasionally there is a post that takes the problem to a whole
new level.  For instance, here are some comments from a recent thread, all
from the same author:   

http://www.dsprelated.com/showmessage/89301/2.php

“If this is just an idle interest, better GFY.”   (i.e., Go F***
Yourself) 

“The whole purpose of attacking the argument is proving technically that
the person making this argument is the idiot.”

“BTW, I consider hate and bigotry as natural, not like anything to be
ashamed about.”

“You should (tell people to GFY). It is such a pleasure to call things
with their right names.”


This was in response to a legitimate question from a first-time poster. 
Now I think back on all of the people I have referred to Comp.DSP over the
years.   I’m embarrassed, and the other professionals that contribute to
the discussion should be also. Let me offer three suggestions for dealing
with this problem.

First, MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE NOT A BORDERLINE OFFENDER.   Several of the
authors seem to think it is OK to be rude or condescending, as long as
they don’t “cross the line.”   I can assure you that your colleagues
do not see the line in the same place you do.  Those reading your posts put
you in the same category as the above abusive author.  Is this really what
you want?

Second, BE OUTSPOKEN ABOUT ABUSES.  However, be careful that you do it
without being abusive yourself.  Take this excellent response from Randy
Yates as an example:  

“That's really, really rude, and no matter how much the OP might
"deserve" such a sentiment, it really just serves to bring the spirit of
the group to a new low. How about setting your sites on higher ground?

Third, and most important, DO NOT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOR. Misbehaving
children are not seeking your approval, they are seeking your attention. 
If you give them attention the bad behavior will continue.   Going back
and forth with abusive authors, regardless of what you say, will lead to
further abuses.  Send a short post condemning their behavior, and then
shut up.   For instance, I’m sure that the above author is going to say
all sorts of things about my comments.   I’m not going to reward his bad
behavior by answering them, and you shouldn’t either.  

Now is the time to step up and express your opinion and commitment.  Am I
off base here, or is this a problem that can be turned around?

Regards,
Steve Smith
Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com

       

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:13:49 -0600, "SteveSmith"
<Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com> wrote in comp.dsp:

You've made some good points, although they have all been made many
times before in many usenet groups, and the chances for actual change
is slight.  Actually, the signal to noise ratio is comp.dsp is quite
high, compared to many other usenet groups.

I am not posting to argue with your suggestions.  In fact, I will even
second them if you like, although as I said I don't think they'll
really do much good.

Instead, I am posting about another matter:

> Dear Colleagues, 
> I&rsquo;ve had my DSP book online for some time and receive 10-15 unsolicited
   ^^^

Usenet is one of the last real text-only media.  In an English
language group, such as this one, all posts should be made in plain
7-bit ASCII.  There are still a large number of usenet participants
who use plain text-only newsreaders.

The three-character strings above appears each time you use an
asterisk in your post, and a few other odd strings appear in places
where you used opening and closing quotation marks.

If this is a result of your preference settings on DSPrelated.com,
please change them so use ' and ".  If this is something caused by the
HTML gateway that you cannot control (I don't know, I don't use HTML
front ends to usenet), please contact the administrators of the site
and ask them to fix this.

If they can't, or won't, fix this, please use a real newsreader and an
NNTP account, there are many free ones available, to post properly to
comp.dsp and most of the other technical discussion groups that I am
familiar with.

Part of the civility you seek comes from individuals following the
conventions in a group, and that means 7-bit ASCII and not Unicode or
complex character sets.

-- 
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://c-faq.com/
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html

"SteveSmith" <Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com> writes:
> [...]

Hi Steve,

At first I was afraid you were talking about me. I've made some very
off-topic, controversial rants in the relatively-recent past here on
comp.dsp. Those don't really belong here and sometimes I wonder why
I felt the need to abuse the readers and subject them to my rant. I
guess I blow a hormone sometimes.

I agree with you. I also feel like Jack Klein - what can we really do
about it, short of posting some sort of response that will hopefully
discourage the behavior? 

And while I don't see the need to be rude and/or vulgar, I also don't see
the need to be too sugar-coated either. One thing that particularly gets
my gourd is when newbies expect to be spoon-fed baby food - for example,
those that expect us to type in an entire lecture on a topic when that
topic is covered sufficiently by a variety of books and other resources.

But I do sincerely hope that those who come here earnestly thirsting for
knowledge in this wonderful, broad, and complex subject area will come
away fulfilled and encouraged, and that they can look past my own and
others' occasional abuses. 
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %            on, and she's also a telephone."
%%% 919-577-9882                % 
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %        'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO   
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

"SteveSmith" <Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com> wrote in message
news:7-ednWPhQZfwouTanZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Dear Colleagues,
> I&#4294967295;?

Ja, Ja. GFY

On 31 Des 2007, 20:13, "SteveSmith" <Steve.Smi...@SpectrumSDI.com>
wrote:

> First, MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE NOT A BORDERLINE OFFENDER.   Several of the
> authors seem to think it is OK to be rude or condescending, as long as
> they don't "cross the line."  

There is a chance you count me among these authors. While I don't
think it is OK to be either rude or condescending, I know my posts
may be interpreted in such ways by other prople. There is a line
which I make the effort not to cross. I don't always succeed to
stay on th epreferable side, but I make the effort.

> I can assure you that your colleagues
> do not see the line in the same place you do.  Those reading your posts put
> you in the same category as the above abusive author.  Is this really what
> you want?

What I want is to take part in developing a professional
community which has a chance of functioning in a less than
ideal world. In my world th eleast competent students out
of high school go on to become teachers for what can be
transated as "basic school", the compulsary school where
6 to 16-year-olds go. Where students "shop" for classes
where they get "cheap" (meaning "effortless") credits.
Where young females are promoted because they possess some
nondescript "female competence" which make them superior
to their male colleagues. Everyone are free to contemplate
what qualifications and competence this might possibly
be - the fact of the matter is that less than two hours
ago as I write this, a Norwegian law was instated where
any company which does *not* list at leats 40% females
on the board of directors - the gender being prioritized
independently of any other qualifucations - the company
is liable to forced closure. No, this is not concocted
by neithet Franz Kafka nor Monthy Python. This is
Norwegian Law.

If you or any other find my posts on the sharp side,
what formulations or opinions are concerned, it is caused
by the simple fact that the world of engineering I prepared
and trained for, where competence and professionalism were
held in high esteem, is coming to and end. Not by accident,
not by bad luck. By willful termination by the people
who possess the power to prepare the boundary conditions
where engineering professionals try to make a living.

If you read my posts carefully, you might find that I make
the effort to convey to students and newbies that once
they take on the profession they also take on a
responsibility for their actions. It is a sad fact that
engineers and researchers take business practices for
granetd whic would place them in a very bad psoition
if somebody decided to throw a lawsuit for professional
malpractice or all out fraud at them. People need to be
made aware of such issues - the professional training
institutions certainly do not.

So if you have a problem with "borderline abusers" then
please make the effort to find out exactly what the
motives for a percieved rough handling of people might
be. There is a slight chance that there might be more
to it than mere sadistic hedonism.

Rune

"Vladimir Vassilevsky" <antispam_bogus@hotmail.com> writes:

> "SteveSmith" <Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com> wrote in message
> news:7-ednWPhQZfwouTanZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> I&#4294967295;?
>
> Ja, Ja. GFY

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all
knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not
love, I am nothing."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=13&version=31

Vladimir, you have an amazing intellect, but intellect alone does not
profit.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "And all that I can do
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %  is say I'm sorry, 
%%% 919-577-9882                %  that's the way it goes..."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           % Getting To The Point', *Balance of Power*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Hi Steve,

Welcome to comp.dsp. Most of us have a copy of your book. I hope you will 
join our ongoing dialog regardless of the occassional coarseness. 

I have been a regular for at least 10 years, probably a lot more. I won't 
deny that some of the responses are a bit unkind, but I think you will 
find that this is the exception, not the norm.

I have met a surprising number of the regulars of comp.dsp. Most of them, 
I would consider as my friends. As you previously noted, the S/N of this 
group on technical matters is exceptionally high. We probably tolerant a 
bit of arrogance for substance.   

My suggestion is too participate and if you think someone is being 
excessively abusive in their response to someone else's post, call them 
on it. You wouldn't be the first.

When my father was a young man he attended a conference on statistics. He 
asked the speaker a question and was promptly berated by the speaker. 
John Tukey stood up and stated "I think the young man has a good question 
and you should answer it". My father no longer remembers the question, 
but he remembers John Tukey. 

OK, enough preaching, I'll stop before someone tells me to ......


Al Clark
Danville Signal Processing, Inc.





Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in news:m3lk7ah3c5.fsf@ieee.org:

> "SteveSmith" <Steve.Smith1@SpectrumSDI.com> writes:
>> [...]
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> At first I was afraid you were talking about me. I've made some very
> off-topic, controversial rants in the relatively-recent past here on
> comp.dsp. Those don't really belong here and sometimes I wonder why
> I felt the need to abuse the readers and subject them to my rant. I
> guess I blow a hormone sometimes.
> 
> I agree with you. I also feel like Jack Klein - what can we really do
> about it, short of posting some sort of response that will hopefully
> discourage the behavior? 
> 
> And while I don't see the need to be rude and/or vulgar, I also don't 
see
> the need to be too sugar-coated either. One thing that particularly 
gets
> my gourd is when newbies expect to be spoon-fed baby food - for 
example,
> those that expect us to type in an entire lecture on a topic when that
> topic is covered sufficiently by a variety of books and other 
resources.
> 
> But I do sincerely hope that those who come here earnestly thirsting 
for
> knowledge in this wonderful, broad, and complex subject area will come
> away fulfilled and encouraged, and that they can look past my own and
> others' occasional abuses. 

in the tradition of zxform, E.Bob, and Beanie (is there anyone i
forgot?  i don't wanna leave out anybody's favorite comp.dsp turkey):

On Dec 31 2007, 6:30 pm, "Vladimir Vassilevsky"
<antispam_bo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ja, Ja. GFY

Vlad, you've accomplished the feat of losing whatever respect the
community previous may have had of you.  doesn't matter what you've
done in the technical domain.  for the most part your content is of
"Yes, I know the way of doing that. Just pay me $500 and the job will
be done simple and efficient." or "Hey wife [or daughter], if somebody
offers you a million of dollars, would you have sex with him?" or the
above.

we don't care what you think.  earlier you had the benefit of doubt
(and that's been squandered).  now it's clear what your problem is, i
just don't know how you do all of that typing with one hand.  don't
your muscles get sore and tired?

r b-j

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:36:40 -0800 (PST), robert bristow-johnson
<rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote:

>
>in the tradition of zxform, E.Bob, and Beanie (is there anyone i
>forgot?  i don't wanna leave out anybody's favorite comp.dsp turkey):
>
>On Dec 31 2007, 6:30 pm, "Vladimir Vassilevsky"
><antispam_bo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ja, Ja. GFY
>
>Vlad, you've accomplished the feat of losing whatever respect the
>community previous may have had of you.  doesn't matter what you've
>done in the technical domain.  for the most part your content is of
>"Yes, I know the way of doing that. Just pay me $500 and the job will
>be done simple and efficient." or "Hey wife [or daughter], if somebody
>offers you a million of dollars, would you have sex with him?" or the
>above.
>
>we don't care what you think.  earlier you had the benefit of doubt
>(and that's been squandered).  now it's clear what your problem is, i
>just don't know how you do all of that typing with one hand.  don't
>your muscles get sore and tired?

Has this something to do with the "sticky keys" feature?

-- 
John

On Jan 1, 9:08 pm, John O'Flaherty <quias...@yeeha.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:36:40 -0800 (PST), robert bristow-johnson
>
>
>
> <r...@audioimagination.com> wrote:
>
> >in the tradition of zxform, E.Bob, and Beanie (is there anyone i
> >forgot?  i don't wanna leave out anybody's favorite comp.dsp turkey):
>
> >On Dec 31 2007, 6:30 pm, "Vladimir Vassilevsky"
> ><antispam_bo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Ja, Ja. GFY
>
> >Vlad, you've accomplished the feat of losing whatever respect the
> >community previous may have had of you.  doesn't matter what you've
> >done in the technical domain.  for the most part your content is of
> >"Yes, I know the way of doing that. Just pay me $500 and the job will
> >be done simple and efficient." or "Hey wife [or daughter], if somebody
> >offers you a million of dollars, would you have sex with him?" or the
> >above.
>
> >we don't care what you think.  earlier you had the benefit of doubt
> >(and that's been squandered).  now it's clear what your problem is, i
> >just don't know how you do all of that typing with one hand.  don't
> >your muscles get sore and tired?
>
> Has this something to do with the "sticky keys" feature?
>

something like that.

r b-j