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Started by Unknown June 13, 2008
Jerry Avins wrote:
> John Monro wrote: >> Jerry Avins wrote: >>> stanp wrote: >>>> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>>>> >>>>> (snip) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>>>> and their women. >>>>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>>>> [-Rick-] >>>>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>>>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. You >>>>> may >>>>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time ago, >>>>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these >>>>> fifty >>>>> years. >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> >>>> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>>> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>>> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>>> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>>> should have the right to murder Russians. >>> >>> Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. >>> The neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be >>> treated like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It >>> didn't work out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid >>> camps for generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In >>> Jordan, Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are >>> for the most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the >>> Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman >>> whose family came originally from a West Bank town that the treaty >>> put under Israeli control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to >>> know that he could never go home again. He replied that his father >>> might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, Lebanon, >>> and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated in camps. Blind hatred >>> was promoted and festered. >>> >>> The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the >>> conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn to >>> annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and >>> Arab schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". >>> >>> Jerry >> >> Jerry, >> Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." The >> facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no >> accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be >> allowed to return to their homes when they are able. >> >> I quote from a Wikopedia article: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus >> but more authorative sources are not hard to find: >> >> "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: >> What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; >> Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion >> at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in >> such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and >> armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route >> [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the >> question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his >> hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a term >> with a harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most >> difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not >> leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and >> warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 >> miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of >> Peace, p. 140-141)" > > Most, but not all. Those forced out from short-term strategic necessity > should have been allowed to return promptly when the first round of > hostilities ended. Who knows what would have happened had the refugees > not been virtually imprisoned as propaganda hostages? For years, not > even the Red Cross was allowed into the refugee camps; now it's a bit > late. What claim should American Indians and Australian aborigines have > to the lands they were forcibly removed from? > > Jerry
It's not too late now. At the very least Israel could stop opposing the creation of a Palestinian State, and it could pay the Palestinian title-holders the current market price of the property that Israelis confiscated back in '47 / '48. As for Australian aborigines, yes in a number of cases their claims to the lands they were forcibly removed from have been recognised by the Australian Government, and Native Title has been granted to large areas of central Australia. Other compensation to be given is a topic of lively debate here. Regards, John
John Monro wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote: >> John Monro wrote: >>> Jerry Avins wrote: >>>> stanp wrote: >>>>> On Jun 19, 10:37 am, John Monro <johnmo...@optusnet.removethis.com.au> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Rick Lyons wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> (snip) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> My suggestion to eliminate the "attack" that you address is to >>>>>>> find every Muslim terrorist under the age of 25, and buy them >>>>>>> a house with a swimming pool in California, and buy them an SUV >>>>>>> to drive. Because the average young American woman will have >>>>>>> sex with anyone wearing pants who says, "I love you", >>>>>>> the potential terrorists should have no problem finding sex. >>>>>>> (Which is apparently only possible with animals for a single >>>>>>> guy in the Middle East and Afganistan.) >>>>>>> Once these poor Muslim terrorist bastards find out that >>>>>>> there's more to life than wanting to kill people who are >>>>>>> not Muslim, then they'll maybe stop sawing off the heads >>>>>>> of innocent people, and stop strapping bombs to themselves >>>>>>> and their women. >>>>>>> Anyway, just a few suggestions. >>>>>>> [-Rick-] >>>>>> A more practical and just solution would be to force the Israeli >>>>>> Government to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes. >>>>>> You may >>>>>> recalll that they were driven out by Israeli terrorists some time >>>>>> ago, >>>>>> and many have held on to their property title documents all these >>>>>> fifty >>>>>> years. >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> My mother's family were removed from their farm near Vilnius in 1939. >>>>> Russian soldiers came to the house, shot the dog and gave them 10 >>>>> minutes to grab what they could before put on trains for Siberia. >>>>> What happened to the Palestinians was unjust, but by your standards, I >>>>> should have the right to murder Russians. >>>> >>>> Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own when the 1947 began. >>>> The neighboring states said that those Arabs who remained would be >>>> treated like traitors when Israel was "pushed into the sea". It >>>> didn't work out that way, and the refugees were confined to squalid >>>> camps for generations while being flooded with hate propaganda. In >>>> Jordan, Palestinians were allowed to integrate into society and are >>>> for the most part prosperous. I was in Amman when the >>>> Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was signed. One Jordanian businessman >>>> whose family came originally from a West Bank town that the treaty >>>> put under Israeli control was asked by an interviewer how it felt to >>>> know that he could never go home again. He replied that his father >>>> might care, but as a Jordanian, he himself didn't. In Syria, >>>> Lebanon, and Egypt, the refugees remained concentrated in camps. >>>> Blind hatred was promoted and festered. >>>> >>>> The world shouldn't excuse Israel's confiscation of land in the >>>> conquered West Bank (conquered in a war started by neighbors sworn >>>> to annihilate them) but neither should one excuse PLO stationary and >>>> Arab schoolbooks that show all of modern Israel as "Palestine". >>>> >>>> Jerry >>> >>> Jerry, >>> Why claim that "Most of the Arabs in Israel left on their own ..." >>> The facts are virtually beyond dispute. Apart from this, there is no >>> accepted principle that refugees from hostilities should not be >>> allowed to return to their homes when they are able. >>> >>> I quote from a Wikopedia article: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus >>> but more authorative sources are not hard to find: >>> >>> "(Yitzhak)Rabin wrote in his memoirs: >>> What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities &#2013266053; >>> Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion >>> at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in >>> such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and >>> armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route >>> [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. &#2013266053; Allon repeated the >>> question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved >>> his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! &#2013266053; 'Driving out' is a >>> term with a harsh ring &#2013266053; Psychologically, this was one of the most >>> difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not >>> leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and >>> warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 >>> miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of >>> Peace, p. 140-141)" >> >> Most, but not all. Those forced out from short-term strategic >> necessity should have been allowed to return promptly when the first >> round of hostilities ended. Who knows what would have happened had the >> refugees not been virtually imprisoned as propaganda hostages? For >> years, not even the Red Cross was allowed into the refugee camps; now >> it's a bit late. What claim should American Indians and Australian >> aborigines have to the lands they were forcibly removed from? >> >> Jerry > > It's not too late now. At the very least Israel could stop opposing the > creation of a Palestinian State, and it could pay the Palestinian > title-holders the current market price of the property that Israelis > confiscated back in '47 / '48.
I don't think that they oppose that. It's difficult to establish any sort of relationship or entertain any compromise with entities sworn to destroy you utterly. Until this week, Israel supplied Gaza with limited amounts of fuel and electric power while Gaza continued to bombard Israel with rockets. We live in a mad world.
> As for Australian aborigines, yes in a number of cases their claims to > the lands they were forcibly removed from have been recognised by the > Australian Government, and Native Title has been granted to large areas > of central Australia. Other compensation to be given is a topic of > lively debate here.
An some Indian lands have been restored here. Nobody, however, is thinking about returning any land where cities have been built. This conversation is out of place here. I didn't want your comment to go entirely unanswered, but I think that any future exchanges should be elsewhere. For me, that means email. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;