Forums

Comparison

Started by Roelof Oelofsen January 30, 2002
Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA



Roelof,

I am certainly no DSP expert and neither do I use signal processing in my job.
However, I have done school projects on both the DSP56800's and TI's 'C24 (low
end 16 bit fixed point) DSP.

I would say from a novice point of view the major differences between these 2
parts are:

1) Motorola's assembly and overall part architecture (in terms of registers, MAC
operations, etc.) is much newer and much easier to understand, especially if you
are used to microcontrollers. If you're used to low end microcontrollers, TI's
'C24 assembly is almost unintelligible, although I'm sure they would recommend
you write in C and use their compiler. The 'C2000 series core is basically a 20
year old architecture, which isn't always a bad thing.

2) TI's code compose studio (which I've only seen but not used) seems to be
superior to Mot's - especially since it has integral graphing capability.
Motorola's data display capability is lacking, especially from a signal
processing standpoint - i.e. variable display defaults to some sort of ASCII
instead of fractional signed 2's complement, which I believe is the inherent
type used in the hardware.

3) TI's low end parts have A/D converters (this saves $$) and other motor
control goodies on them - no integral A/D on the Mot 56800 series parts

4) TI's low end parts are MUCH more widely used and have much more 3rd party
tools, TI app. notes, etc. available. Haven't tried TI's tech support though.
Until recently it seems, Mot's DSP market I believe was mostly a handful of
large customers (read: cell phones and related equipment).

5) Both parts are getting more microcontroller peripherals like timers, UART,
and SPI interfaces.

If you're doing a one-off project I would use Motorola since it's an easier to
get up to speed on; if you're heading for production I would consider TI because
of the integral A/D (if it's fast enough for you) and more app. notes and tools.
This would also depend on cost of EVM's / DSK's. Last time I checked the $100
TI 'C25 DSK had only a simple DOS based interface - you had to pay $$ for Code
Composer. Mot had a great deal up until a few months ago - C compiler and EVM
with lots of peripherals for only $295, which I think is now $1295.

I would also pose your question to the www.google.com newsgroup:
comp.dsp - a great newsgroup for DSP questions - there are some rocket
scientists there.

Note that my opinions are not necessarily those of my employer - but my
employer's working on this problem.

Regards,

Stuart
>>> "Roelof Oelofsen" <> 01/30/02 03:39AM >>>
Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA
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I believe much of what you are looking for could easily be found in a web
search and/or on the Motorola and TI websites.

However - personal experience with both says (though not a totally fair
comparison) that the Motorola development environment, including Code
Warrior and the Software Development Kit, will have you up and running in
much less time than with the TI tools. I also had 100x or more better
reliability with the Motorola development environment than with TI's. The
TI parallel-JTAG gizmo was extremely picky about hardware setup and didn't
give good, instructive error messages when it wasn't connected correctly.
It caused Lots of Grief and was a main source of my technical support
questions to TI.

Neither solution is perfect. Motorola's Tech Support doesn't know the
Metrowerk's CodeWarrior and vice-versa (entirely different unions). You can
waste a few days trying to find the right person for tech support,
especially with the typical 24-hour turn around on responses. I expect that
is typical even though I'm not happy about it.

The Motorola SDK has a lot of good example projects that run without
modification on the evaluation module. If starting from scratch, I highly
recommend that you get their whole evaluation module development system for
your target processor and muck about with it for a long time before you
start on your own layout. You can have working code within an hour of
opening the box if you are fluent with PC's and development systems. I love
that!

The disclaimer is that I was using TI's system from about 3-4 years ago and
am comparing it to today's Motorola DSP development system. Maybe TI's is
better now - I don't have time nor the desire to research that. If I get
another chance to do DSP development again (project was cancelled) I will
exhaust all other possibilities before I consider TI as an option.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roelof Oelofsen [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:40 AM
To:
Subject: [motoroladsp] Comparison

Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA



There is a pdf with a couple of comparison, I found it on the net about 1
year ago. Have no idea where I found it anymore.

rgds Chris Brauchli

__________________________________
BRAUCHLI NETSOLUTION BERG
Bahnhofstrasse 7
CH- 8572 Berg
Switzerland
Tel. +41/ 71 / 638 00 45
Fax. +41/ 71 / 638 00 46
Mob. +41/ 78 / 616 22 14
email.
www.brauchli-netsolution.ch
__________________________________ -----Original Message-----
From: Roelof Oelofsen [mailto:]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2002 09:40
To:
Subject: [motoroladsp] Comparison Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA
_____________________________________
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this message will receive your answer. You need to do a "reply all" if you
want your answer to be distributed to the entire group.

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Attachment (not stored)
2001dsp.pdf
Type: application/pdf

The 56F80X series definitely Does have A/D on it!  That's why we chose it in the first place.  I believe the 803 and 805 have 8 A/D inputs.  The 807 has 16.  They are fairly fast, too!  The do have more internal noise that a pure AD, but for the price it is hard to beat.  Also has CAN, PWM control, timers, etc.
 
I won't dispute the rest of what you say.  You seem to know what you are talking about.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Dejonge [mailto:s...@lutron.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:08 AM
To: o...@telkom.co.za; m...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motoroladsp] Comparison

Roelof,

I am certainly no DSP expert and neither do I use signal processing in my job.  However, I have done school projects on both the DSP56800's and TI's 'C24 (low end 16 bit fixed point) DSP.

I would say from a novice point of view the major differences between these 2 parts are:

1) Motorola's assembly and overall part architecture (in terms of registers, MAC operations, etc.) is much newer and much easier to understand, especially if you are used to microcontrollers.  If you're used to low end microcontrollers, TI's 'C24 assembly is almost unintelligible, although I'm sure they would recommend you write in C and use their compiler.  The 'C2000 series core is basically a 20 year old architecture, which isn't always a bad thing.

2) TI's code compose studio (which I've only seen but not used) seems to be superior to Mot's - especially since it has integral graphing capability.
Motorola's data display capability is lacking, especially from a signal processing standpoint - i.e. variable display defaults to some sort of ASCII instead of fractional signed 2's complement, which I believe is the inherent type used in the hardware.

3) TI's low end parts have A/D converters (this saves $$) and other motor control goodies on them - no integral A/D on the Mot 56800 series parts

4) TI's low end parts are MUCH more widely used and have much more 3rd party tools, TI app. notes, etc. available.  Haven't tried TI's tech support though.  Until recently it seems, Mot's DSP market I believe was mostly a handful of large customers (read: cell phones and related equipment).

5) Both parts are getting more microcontroller peripherals like timers, UART, and SPI interfaces.

If you're doing a one-off project I would use Motorola since it's an easier to get up to speed on; if you're heading for production I would consider TI because of the integral A/D (if it's fast enough for you) and more app. notes and tools.  This would also depend on cost of EVM's / DSK's.  Last time I checked the $100 TI  'C25 DSK had only a simple DOS based interface - you had to pay $$ for Code Composer.  Mot had a great deal up until a few months ago - C compiler and EVM with lots of peripherals for only $295, which I think is now $1295.

I would also pose your question to the www.google.com newsgroup:
         comp.dsp  - a great newsgroup for DSP questions - there are some rocket scientists there.

Note that my opinions are not necessarily those of my employer - but my employer's working on this problem.

Regards,

Stuart
>>> "Roelof Oelofsen" <o...@telkom.co.za> 01/30/02 03:39AM >>>
Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA
_____________________________________
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David,

Thank you for the good comments about CodeWarrior and how it got you started
faster and with the reliability you found with it. In your message you
wrote...

> Motorola's Tech Support doesn't know the Metrowerk's CodeWarrior and
> vice-versa (entirely different unions). You can waste a few days trying to
> find the right person for tech support, especially with the typical 24-hour
> turn around on responses. I expect that is typical even though I'm not happy
> about it.

Metrowerks support is aware of a need to more closely work with Motorola DSP
Support regarding SDK issues when those are reported to Metrowerks. We are
currently doing some things to expedite matters and investigating other
means of avoiding a double queue. Metrowerks is a subsidiary of Motorola
and we will use the power we have to improve our responses and that of
Motorola's.

We deeply appreciate your comments and this feedback is going to make things
better. Please feel free to post here or on the codewarrior.embedded
newsgroup or send a message directly to me if you have any other suggestions
to improve Metrowerks Support.

Ron > I believe much of what you are looking for could easily be found in a web
> search and/or on the Motorola and TI websites.
>
> However - personal experience with both says (though not a totally fair
> comparison) that the Motorola development environment, including Code
> Warrior and the Software Development Kit, will have you up and running in
> much less time than with the TI tools. I also had 100x or more better
> reliability with the Motorola development environment than with TI's. The
> TI parallel-JTAG gizmo was extremely picky about hardware setup and didn't
> give good, instructive error messages when it wasn't connected correctly.
> It caused Lots of Grief and was a main source of my technical support
> questions to TI.
>
> Neither solution is perfect. Motorola's Tech Support doesn't know the
> Metrowerk's CodeWarrior and vice-versa (entirely different unions). You can
> waste a few days trying to find the right person for tech support,
> especially with the typical 24-hour turn around on responses. I expect that
> is typical even though I'm not happy about it.
>
> The Motorola SDK has a lot of good example projects that run without
> modification on the evaluation module. If starting from scratch, I highly
> recommend that you get their whole evaluation module development system for
> your target processor and muck about with it for a long time before you
> start on your own layout. You can have working code within an hour of
> opening the box if you are fluent with PC's and development systems. I love
> that!
>
> The disclaimer is that I was using TI's system from about 3-4 years ago and
> am comparing it to today's Motorola DSP development system. Maybe TI's is
> better now - I don't have time nor the desire to research that. If I get
> another chance to do DSP development again (project was cancelled) I will
> exhaust all other possibilities before I consider TI as an option.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roelof Oelofsen [mailto:]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:40 AM
> To:
> Subject: [motoroladsp] Comparison
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
> Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
> the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
> from TI and AD?
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> Regards
> Roelof Oelofsen
> Electronic design specialist
> Tekom SA >
>
> _____________________________________
> Note: If you do a simple "reply" with your email client, only the author of
> this message will receive your answer. You need to do a "reply all" if you
> want your answer to be distributed to the entire group.
>
> _____________________________________
> About this discussion group:
>
> To Join:
>
> To Post:
>
> To Leave:
>
> Archives: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/motoroladsp
>
> More Groups: http://www.dsprelated.com/groups.php3 > ">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Check out the codewarrior.* usenet newsgroups
for assistance with your programming questions.

Metrowerks, maker of CodeWarrior - "Software Starts Here"
Ron Liechty - - http://www.metrowerks.com


Along with the other responses, here are some additional things to note when comparing the 56F80x family (not including 56824, 56F826 and 56F827) to TI's C24x and ADI's DashDSP family...
 
- 'F80x devices do have ADC, 12-bit, and they are configured as dual ADCs with seperate sample/hold circuits for simultaneous conversions (so, TI may list faster single conversion time, but utilizing the dual ADC feature for multiple conversions cuts down conversion time for Mot DSP)
- The higher performance C240x devices (30-40 MIPS) and Motorola's 'F80x both run off 3.0-3.6V supply (3.3V nominal), but the TI devices require a separate 5V supply to program the Flash; Mot does not
- Motorola has loaded these DSPs with timers which can be concatenated for 32-bit and 64-bit timer operation; I don't believe TI or ADI offers this option
- TI's Third Party support is more focused on their C54x family, with very little support for the C24x; Motorola's SDK (Software Developers Kit) already contains drivers and application examples to get you started right away
- Motorola's DSP56F801 has the option to run off internal relaxation oscillator; competitor's do not
- Motorola offers feature rich DSP56F807-- 60kx16 PFlash, 8kx16 Data Flash, 2kx16 PRAM, 4kx16 XRAM, 2kx16 Boot Flash, 2 SCI, 1 SPI, watchdog timer, 2 dedicated Quad Timers and 2 quad timers muxed with quadrature decoders, 14 dedicated GPIO, 18 multiplexed GPIO, JTAG/OnCE, 2x6-ch 16-bit PWM, CAN 2.0A/B, low-voltage interrupt, external memory bus, 160 LQFP and MBGA
- ADI does offer small packages (28-pin) and ROM versions; TI offers limited ROM devices; Motorola offers Flash
 
For more information, you should contact a local Motorola sales rep or distributor, and visit www.mot-sps.com.
 
If you are interested in DSPs more suited for client-side telecom applications, you should also be aware of the recently announced DSP5685x family.  Press release at, http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,831_580_23,00.html
 
Hope this is useful to you.
-D. Scott Brown


-----Original Message-----
From: Roelof Oelofsen [mailto:o...@telkom.co.za]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2002 09:40
To: m...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motoroladsp] ComparisonHi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA
_____________________________________
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this message will receive your answer.  You need to do a "reply all" if you
want your answer to be distributed to the entire group.

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In reading the mail on the DSP comparisons, we are looking to the DSP/MCU
8xx family very very closely for a few projects.

The selling points to us are:

1) Cost of the development systems and support for multiple engineers.
2) the SDK
3) processing speed
4) multiple UARTs (SCIs) and CAN, SPI, PWMs, A/D, and other peripherals.
5) expandable memory via the external memory bus, which also supports I/O
6) a variety of processors to fit our products tighter.
7) a much better migration pathway than our current dead end pathway.
8) an RTOS (DSPOS) that supports TCP/IP

That about nails it for us. The rest just piles on.

---
Frank Hoffman (503) 404 5546
CAN - Controller Area Networks
Leviton Mfg.
Lighting Controls Division - Portland Facility
20497 SW Teton Avenue
Tualatin OR 97062

A wise old salesman once told me, "No matter how good your product is,
somebody hates it, and no matter how bad it is, somebody loves it." -----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Dejonge [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:08 AM
To: ;
Subject: Re: [motoroladsp] Comparison Roelof,

I am certainly no DSP expert and neither do I use signal processing in my
job. However, I have done school projects on both the DSP56800's and TI's
'C24 (low end 16 bit fixed point) DSP.

I would say from a novice point of view the major differences between these
2 parts are:

1) Motorola's assembly and overall part architecture (in terms of registers,
MAC operations, etc.) is much newer and much easier to understand,
especially if you are used to microcontrollers. If you're used to low end
microcontrollers, TI's 'C24 assembly is almost unintelligible, although I'm
sure they would recommend you write in C and use their compiler. The 'C2000
series core is basically a 20 year old architecture, which isn't always a
bad thing.

2) TI's code compose studio (which I've only seen but not used) seems to be
superior to Mot's - especially since it has integral graphing capability.
Motorola's data display capability is lacking, especially from a signal
processing standpoint - i.e. variable display defaults to some sort of ASCII
instead of fractional signed 2's complement, which I believe is the inherent
type used in the hardware.

3) TI's low end parts have A/D converters (this saves $$) and other motor
control goodies on them - no integral A/D on the Mot 56800 series parts

4) TI's low end parts are MUCH more widely used and have much more 3rd party
tools, TI app. notes, etc. available. Haven't tried TI's tech support
though. Until recently it seems, Mot's DSP market I believe was mostly a
handful of large customers (read: cell phones and related equipment).

5) Both parts are getting more microcontroller peripherals like timers,
UART, and SPI interfaces.

If you're doing a one-off project I would use Motorola since it's an easier
to get up to speed on; if you're heading for production I would consider TI
because of the integral A/D (if it's fast enough for you) and more app.
notes and tools. This would also depend on cost of EVM's / DSK's. Last
time I checked the $100 TI 'C25 DSK had only a simple DOS based interface -
you had to pay $$ for Code Composer. Mot had a great deal up until a few
months ago - C compiler and EVM with lots of peripherals for only $295,
which I think is now $1295.

I would also pose your question to the www.google.com newsgroup:
comp.dsp - a great newsgroup for DSP questions - there are some
rocket scientists there.

Note that my opinions are not necessarily those of my employer - but my
employer's working on this problem.

Regards,

Stuart
>>> "Roelof Oelofsen" <> 01/30/02 03:39AM >>>
Hi all,

I am new to this newsgroup as well as to DSP in general.
Can you guys that have all the experience give me a comparison between
the Motorola DSP56F80x and similar DSP's (40MIPS, 16bit fixed point)
from TI and AD?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Roelof Oelofsen
Electronic design specialist
Tekom SA
_____________________________________
Note: If you do a simple "reply" with your email client, only the author of
this message will receive your answer. You need to do a "reply all" if you
want your answer to be distributed to the entire group.

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About this discussion group:

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Archives: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/motoroladsp

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_____________________________________
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this message will receive your answer. You need to do a "reply all" if you
want your answer to be distributed to the entire group.

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Frank Hoffman wrote:

> The selling points to us are:
>
> 1) Cost of the development systems and support for multiple engineers.


If you ever have any questions about this feel free to call our 800 number
1-800-377-5416 US and Canada Only, check our web site
<http://www.metrowerks.com>, or even write directly to me and I'll pass your
message on to a sales representative.

Ron

--
Check out the codewarrior.* usenet newsgroups
for assistance with your programming questions.

Metrowerks, maker of CodeWarrior - "Software Starts Here"
Ron Liechty - - http://www.metrowerks.com