Rick Lyons wrote:
..
> 
> Whoa!  Wait a minute.  My Christmas greeting 
> represented "good wishes" to everyone.  And if you notice 
> the reference to "IIR filter designers" and 
> "people from Ohio" surely you see that I intended to 
> be (mildly) entertaining in my holiday greeting.
> 

I wasn't commenting on your original post (whose humour I was happy to 
enjoy), but on the massive expansion into a "political" debate, by 
others, with some  fairly edgy comments which took things so far away 
from the genial intent of the original. Yes it is great that people are 
able to express their speech freely and all that, but sometimes I get 
the distinct feeling that people cannot not do that! It is a bit like 
the story of the man who greeted his psychiatrist friend with a "Good 
Morning!", and the friend immediately muttered to himself "I wonder what 
he meant by that?".

Is it actually possible for one person to post an amusing "Happy 
Christmas" and for it to be reciprocated in kind, ~without~ it being 
seized as an opportunity for intense religio-politcal "discussions"?

Happy New year!

Richard Dobson

Rick Lyons wrote:
>
> Now if I had broken the law and sneaked into the USA
> and received financial assistance for my housing,
> totally free medical care, free education for my children,
> and the opportunity to earn money without paying any
> income taxes whatsoever, from the original inhabitants
> of North America then I'd consider saying
> "Thank You".

Well, the first settlers did all that and more. They massacred (most
of) the original inhabitants. So whom are you going to thank?

C

ps - Season's greetings to all

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:34:16 GMT, Richard Dobson
<richarddobson@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Here's wishin' all you guys a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
>>>
>>> Of course, these good wishes are also directed at any of you who do 
>>> not celebrate Christmas such as: ...
>> 
>> Hello Borat! My infidel greetings to you!
>> 
>> Just wondering how many times have you used exactly this troll. It 
>> results in a flame at every time. May be you can suggest something new?

Hi Richard,

>I have just started to read this thread, and am shocked, as I naively 
>assumed people were actually sending each other good wishes. How wrong I 
>was! Why is it so easy for ostensibly sane thoughtful people who 
>supposedly respect each other 99% of the time to put so much energy into 
>words that divide, and so difficult to put the same (or more) energy 
>into words that bond? Shame on all of you! Bad this time of year, but 
>bad at any time.

Whoa!  Wait a minute.  My Christmas greeting 
represented "good wishes" to everyone.  And if you notice 
the reference to "IIR filter designers" and 
"people from Ohio" surely you see that I intended to 
be (mildly) entertaining in my holiday greeting.

Perhaps I was insensitive because it's quite possible 
that "transsexual lesbians" indeed celebrate Christmas.
I don't know. (However, I'm sure those stinkin', godless, 
filthy, IIR filter designers don't celebrate Christmas.)

Anyway Richard, my greeting was no more than a 
"best wishes" to our comp.dsp pals here with a little 
intended humor thrown in.

>And to those of you resident in the USA, an invitation to remember, and 
>give thanks for, the original inhabitants of your lands,

For exactly what should I thank the Asians 
who migrated to North America some two thousand(?)
years ago?  What did they do that I should 
be thankful? 

Now if I had broken the law and sneaked into the USA 
and received financial assistance for my housing, 
totally free medical care, free education for my children, 
and the opportunity to earn money without paying any 
income taxes whatsoever, from the original inhabitants
of North America then I'd consider saying 
"Thank You".

If I received all those free benefits that U.S. 
citizens pay for, but do *NOT* themselves receive 
for free, I'd consider saying "Thank You".

>Ho, mitakuye ouyasin

Oops.  I don't know what that means.
Richard, care to tell us?  Thanks.

Happy New Year
[-Rick-]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:15:32 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky
<antispam_bogus@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Rick Lyons wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> Here's wishin' all you guys a very Merry Christmas and 
>> a Happy New Year!
>> 
>> Of course, these good wishes are also directed at any 
>> of you who do not celebrate Christmas such as: Muslims, 
>> Hindus, God-less atheists, Buddhists, software engineers, 
>> Sikhs, Jews, IIR filter designers, Shinto, Democrats, 
>> Neo-pagans, transsexual lesbians, U.S. Government 
>> employees, Devil worshippers, Scientologists, people from 
>> the U.S. state of Ohio, FPGA programmers, and Rastafarians.
>> 
>> [-Rick-]
>>
>
>Hello Borat! My infidel greetings to you!
>
>Just wondering how many times have you used exactly this troll. It 
>results in a flame at every time. May be you can suggest something new?
>
>VLV

Hi Vladimir,

   I've used this Christmas post for, I'd say,
4-5 years.  I get a big tickle out of the thread it 
creates.  Maybe I'll get my brain working and 
come up with something different next year.
But don't count on that.

Happy New Year,
[-Rick-]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:40:28 -0500, Ray Andraka <ray@andraka.com>
wrote:

>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> Here's wishin' all you guys a very Merry Christmas and 
>> a Happy New Year!
>> 
>> Of course, these good wishes are also directed at any 
>> of you who do not celebrate Christmas such as: Muslims, 
>> Hindus, God-less atheists, Buddhists, software engineers, 
>> Sikhs, Jews, IIR filter designers, Shinto, Democrats, 
>> Neo-pagans, transsexual lesbians, U.S. Government 
>> employees, Devil worshippers, Scientologists, people from 
>> the U.S. state of Ohio, FPGA programmers, and Rastafarians.
>> 
>> [-Rick-]
>> 
>
>Thanks Rick, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well (and to 
>everyone else here).
>
>The bit about Ohio reminds me of a post I fixed for you a long time ago:
>
>[1] For our European friends, Ohio is a part of America with
>no beautiful mountains, no ocean beaches for fishing, sea-skiing
>or skin diving, racial children, desert farmlands and snakes
>deep snow, productive crime,  pretty wide girls with insects,
>  no good-looking, clean or handsome men, no strong politicians,
>and unemployment problems, honest.
>
>Which was the correction for what Rick had written, obviously mixing up 
>some of the words:
>
> > [1] For our European friends, Ohio is a part of America with
> > beautiful mountains for snow skiing, clean ocean beaches for
> > deep-sea fishing and skin diving, productive farmlands,
> > wide deserts with no snakes or insects, pretty girls,
> > strong good-looking men, handsome children, no crime,
> > no racial problems, no unemployment, and honest politicians.

Hi Ray,
  Yes. Yes. I sure do remember your post.
I posted a beautiful (but untrue) description 
of Ohio for our international brothers here, 
and you took my words and viciously twisted 
them into something truly awful.
The truth hurts us folk from Ohio!  

Ha ha.  Your clever posted tickled me so 
much that I sent a copy of it to my sister and 
two brothers who live in Ohio.

Happy New Year Ray,
[-Rick-]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:41:42 -0500, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:

>Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>> Peace and joy. Tikkun olam.
>
>And just to wrap up this thread on Christmas morning, I offer this old 
>chestnut as a gesture of amity and conciliation:
>
>                    ################################
>
>I wanted to send some sort of holiday greeting to my friends, but it is 
>so difficult in today's world to know exactly what to say without 
>offending someone. So I met with my lawyer yesterday, and on his advice 
>I wish to say the following:
>
>Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes 
>for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, 
>nonaddictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter/summer solstice 
>holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious 
>persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the 
>religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their 
>choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.
>
>I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and 
>medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally 
>accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the 
>calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society 
>have helped make our country great (not to imply that it is necessarily 
>greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, 
>color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of 
>the wishee.
>
>By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms:
>
>This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely
>transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no
>promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for
>her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is 
>revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted 
>to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for 
>a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday 
>greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement 
>of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.
>
>Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; 
>however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
>
>Jerry

That's a keeper!

Glad tidings!  Warm seasonal sentiments!

:)




Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

Jerry Avins wrote:

> Peace and joy. Tikkun olam.

And just to wrap up this thread on Christmas morning, I offer this old 
chestnut as a gesture of amity and conciliation:

                    ################################

I wanted to send some sort of holiday greeting to my friends, but it is 
so difficult in today's world to know exactly what to say without 
offending someone. So I met with my lawyer yesterday, and on his advice 
I wish to say the following:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes 
for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, 
nonaddictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter/summer solstice 
holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious 
persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the 
religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their 
choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.

I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and 
medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally 
accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the 
calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society 
have helped make our country great (not to imply that it is necessarily 
greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, 
color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of 
the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms:

This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely
transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no
promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for
her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is 
revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted 
to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for 
a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday 
greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement 
of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; 
however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Eric Jacobsen wrote:

   ...

> Sometimes these disagreements can be discussed while maintaining
> respect for each other and maintain good wishes, and at least for my
> part I hope that's how it's being percieved.   I've met Randy and had
> enjoyable conversations with him over beers before, and have a lot of
> respect for his intellect and beliefs.  I hope that doesn't mean that
> we can't discuss areas where we disagree.
> 
> I'd offer that being able to have that sort of discussion about
> disagreements while still maintaining respect and good wishes for each
> other is an attritbute to be celebrated and cultivated.  Many of the
> folks here on comp.dsp seem to be capable of that, and it's one of the
> few places where I have the most confidence that it can be pulled off.
> 
> Or at least I hope so.   Clearly it's not _always_ the case, but that
> shouldn't stop us from trying.

Being able to have civil discussions with those whose views differ from 
one's own is the key to any successful free pluralistic society. It 
doesn't matter whether the disagreement is about philosophy, politics, 
or religion. When civil discourse becomes impossible, the society fails 
or loses its freedom, becoming (at least outwardly) monolithic in its 
professed beliefs. In short, totalitarian.

> I think that's actually the spirit with which Rick offers his annual
> holiday wishes, so perhaps the whole thread is entirely apropos.

I think so too.

> Happy Holidays to everybody, regardless!  ;)

Peace and joy. Tikkun olam.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:34:16 GMT, Richard Dobson
<richarddobson@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Here's wishin' all you guys a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
>>>
>>> Of course, these good wishes are also directed at any of you who do 
>>> not celebrate Christmas such as: ...
>> 
>> Hello Borat! My infidel greetings to you!
>> 
>> Just wondering how many times have you used exactly this troll. It 
>> results in a flame at every time. May be you can suggest something new?
>> 
>
>I have just started to read this thread, and am shocked, as I naively 
>assumed people were actually sending each other good wishes. How wrong I 
>was! Why is it so easy for ostensibly sane thoughtful people who 
>supposedly respect each other 99% of the time to put so much energy into 
>words that divide, and so difficult to put the same (or more) energy 
>into words that bond? Shame on all of you! Bad this time of year, but 
>bad at any time.
>
>And to those of you resident in the USA, an invitation to remember, and 
>give thanks for, the original inhabitants of your lands,
>
>Ho, mitakuye ouyasin
>
>
>Richard Dobson

Sometimes these disagreements can be discussed while maintaining
respect for each other and maintain good wishes, and at least for my
part I hope that's how it's being percieved.   I've met Randy and had
enjoyable conversations with him over beers before, and have a lot of
respect for his intellect and beliefs.  I hope that doesn't mean that
we can't discuss areas where we disagree.

I'd offer that being able to have that sort of discussion about
disagreements while still maintaining respect and good wishes for each
other is an attritbute to be celebrated and cultivated.  Many of the
folks here on comp.dsp seem to be capable of that, and it's one of the
few places where I have the most confidence that it can be pulled off.

Or at least I hope so.   Clearly it's not _always_ the case, but that
shouldn't stop us from trying.

I think that's actually the spirit with which Rick offers his annual
holiday wishes, so perhaps the whole thread is entirely apropos.

Happy Holidays to everybody, regardless!  ;)



Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:21:57 -0500, Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org>
wrote:

>Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> writes:
>
>> Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> writes:
>>> [...]
>>> With respect, Randy, but that's the sort of stance taken by the likes
>>> of the Taliban.
>>
>> I think not. The Taliban will murder you for worshiping other Gods or
>> practicing other religions.

Most religions have done that over time, Christianity perhaps more so
than others.


>>>>God is part of our *national* belief here.
>>>
>>> I'd disagree strongly with that.   
>>
>> Take a look on any U.S. coin. Not only that, but "In God We Trust" is the
>> official national motto of the U.S. 
>>
>>   http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
>
>Oh, and by the way, this is confirmed in the last verse of our national
>anthem,
>
>    Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
>    Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
>    Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
>    Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
>    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
>    And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
>    And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
>    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
>
>
>  http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anthem.html
>
>Our official, national association with God is also part of the
>official Pledge of Allegiance:
>
>  I pledge allegiance to the Flag
>       of the United States of America,
>  and to the Republic for which it stands:
>       one Nation under God, indivisible,
>  With Liberty and Justice for all.
>
>  http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html
>
>You may not like it, and you may have some valid arguments against it,
>but that's the way it is.

Printing it on money or putting it in a pledge doesn't make it so with
the populace.

As Jerry already pointed out, much of that "heritage" was a result of
the early cold war anti-godless-communism effort.  i.e., it was
politically motivated.  None of it was in place at the time the
country was founded, nor for quite a while afterward.

To try to claim that the US is a "religious" nation is counter to much
of the actual foundation and law of the land.  Many of the people are
religious and there's definitely an undeniable historical heritage
there, but there's also an undeniable non-religious or secular or
whatever-you-want-to-call-it heritage as well that goes back to and
including the founding fathers and is, IMHO, perhaps even more
prevalent today.

There are some very good recent examples.   Minnesota just elected
Keith Ellison, a Muslim, to the US Congress, and he's indicated an
intent to be sworn into office on a Koran instead of on a Bible.
Naturally, plenty of people got into a tizzy about it, but if you
really think the US is a "religious" nation the folks who really know
how it works apparently disagree:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1207/p01s03-uspo.html?s=u

From the article:
________
"The United States is not a Christian state or even a generically
religious state," says Derek Davis, a church-state expert at the
University of Mary Hardin-Baylor in Belton, Texas. "We've worked hard
for 200 years plus to uphold a principle of religious freedom for all
citizens."

In allowing for an affirmation in place of an oath, the Constitution
also makes room for atheists or agnostics.
__________

The freedom to be religious or not is really, IMHO, the beauty of our
heritage.  I've been both and have been glad to have been able to have
my beliefs, regardless of what they were at the time, free of
government influence.

So don't be too surprised that some of us wish very strongly for that
heritage, which has a lot of wisdom to it, to be understood and
continued.

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org