Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >> [...] >> Why, thank you, Rick! I fit several of your descriptions [...] > > Jerry, > > I'll speak up and say that I find your comments (which I did not > repeat above) and your sentimentality offensive, unpatriotic, and > extremely contrary to the season.I think it a season which each of us should celebrate according to his lights*, but not in a way or in a place that imposes it on others. If I choose, I can avoid your table (But I expect to be a cheerful guest at Christmas dinner), but I cannot avoid official obligations whether I prefer to attend or not. My threat to include some devil cult in the general permission of religions was meant, and served, to make the Council aware that they were about to take on the obligation to arbitrate which religions were acceptable and which were not, and that they didn't want to (and could not constitutionally) undertake that role. Enjoy your holiday as I have mine -- and yours too, as a guest. Jerry _________________________________ * Pun noted, but not intended. -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
OT: Christmas Greetings
Started by ●December 21, 2006
Reply by ●December 21, 20062006-12-21
Reply by ●December 21, 20062006-12-21
Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > > [...] > > Why, thank you, Rick! I fit several of your descriptions [...] > > Jerry, > > I'll speak up and say that I find your comments (which I did not > repeat above) and your sentimentality offensive, unpatriotic, and > extremely contrary to the season.wow, Randy. i hope to count myself as friend to both of you. i've set foot in both of your domiciles in different years (but both in NJ) and i would like to remain friend to both, but i don't quite understand your level of offense. "patriotism", in and of itself does have much currency with me nor does the increasingly materialistic and inauthentic "Christmas Spirit" of the current americanized culture, but i count myself a Christian and, at least culturally (i'm disgusted with the place politically) American. both identities are life-long. one of the problems with the current cognitive dissonance of the U.S. is that it's trying to be "multi-cultural" and "racially/ethnically diverse" with a government of law separated from the control of any religious institution, yet, on the other hand continues to show favoritism to a variety of religious traditions with a special emphasis on the western interpretation of Christianity. sometimes other faiths have been honored but often some faith or another gets put in the doghouse (currently it's Islam, but we've had our share of anti-semitism and we've openly dishonored some religions including some native religions). anyway, even if we came to a point where every little newly created faith tradition (perhaps Kwanza or something), gets their little cultural icon mounted in the city park, it leaves no place for the atheist or agnostics or simply those who don't want any part of it. certainly some atheists and similar are demanding too much - i think Richard Dawkins does when he "... equates the religious indoctrination of children by parents ... to a form of mental abuse. Dawkins wants people to cringe every time somebody speaks of a 'Muslim child' or a 'Catholic child', wondering how a young child can be considered developed enough to have such independent views on the cosmos and humanity's place within it." a right and responsibility that i share with my spouse is to teach our kidz what we understand to be true and salient and we reserve that right, just as Dawkins has the right to teach his kids that there is no God. so i think Dawkins goes too far. but to ask that our supposedly secular government, that purports to be separated from the Church, to act like it and not "repect an establishment of religion", that is *not* asking too much. the aethiests have just as much right to "the free exercise" of their "faith", such as it is, as you and i do and i, for one, would not like to see any government building or city hall or public school erect a sign that says "There is no god" just as i don't want any of those government facilities erecting a sign that says "There is no God, but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet". the government, at whatever level; federal, state, county, municipal, should stay the hell out of it. it should do that, because in the highest law of the government, it has explicitly committed itself to stay the hell out of the religion business. that doesn't mean that the government is staying out of the morality or human behavior business, even if such interferes with someone's practice of religion lest we allow some neo-Aztecs to practice human sacrifice, but they don't need to, nor even ought to respect the establishment of *any* particular faith, even that of Christians. r b-j
Reply by ●December 21, 20062006-12-21
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:> Randy Yates wrote: >> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >>> [...] >>> Why, thank you, Rick! I fit several of your descriptions [...] >> Jerry, >> I'll speak up and say that I find your comments (which I did not >> repeat above) and your sentimentality offensive, unpatriotic, and >> extremely contrary to the season. > > I think it a season which each of us should celebrate according to his > lights*, but not in a way or in a place that imposes it on others.That's the point: I disagree with this attitude. This is the USA, and when you agree to live here you agree to abide by certain cultural, language, and, yes, even religious norms we observe here. That means that observance and behavior conforming to these norms IN PUBLIC is entirely acceptable. We speak English here. God is part of our *national* belief here. If that offends you, leave. If you can't handle a little "public" Christmas, there are several other countries to which you are free to go where you would be accomodated. However, if you want to worship some other deity (or none at all) PRIVATELY, then that's your right as a US citizen. -- % Randy Yates % "Rollin' and riding and slippin' and %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % sliding, it's magic." %%% 919-577-9882 % %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Living' Thing', *A New World Record*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●December 22, 20062006-12-22
Randy Yates wrote:> > That's the point: I disagree with this attitude. This is the USA, and > when you agree to live here you agree to abide by certain cultural, > language, and, yes, even religious norms we observe here. That means > that observance and behavior conforming to these norms IN PUBLIC > is entirely acceptable.Jerry can't (legitimately) complain about some ostentatious religious display put up for public view by some church, mosque, synagogue, Buddist temple, or whatever, on such property or any other private property (properly zoned) that they might rent. none of us> We speak English here.most of us do, and, it is perfectly reasonable that public institutions like schools, and government agencies conduct their business in English and those whom haven't learned English can expect to need a translator, not necessarily at government expense. there is no Constitutional provision for the government not to respect the establishment of any particular liguistic tradition (like English) as there is for the government not to respect the establishment of religion.> God is part of our *national* belief here.culturally, yes. but that does not excuse any segment of the publically funded government from obeying the highest established law of the land and refraining from respecting the establishment of religion. Jerry has to put up with the cultural saturation, that the local Shop 'n Save store is filled up with all this Christmas crap, and these businesses and privately owned radio stations are playing all this crappy Christmas music, but he doesn't have to put up with it in the City Hall or any other government facility because the law explicitly protects him from such exposure in that context UNLESS they, for free speech purposes, allow exposure from *any* perspective, including the atheist or Flying Spagetti Monsterist perspective. if they prohibit *any* group from such expression in the public context, then they are respecting the establishment of religion and that is contrary to the highest law of the land.> If that offends you, leave. If you can't handle a little "public" > Christmas, there are several other countries to which you are free to > go where you would be accomodated.oh, wonderful. i remember that one: "America, Love it or leave." some canards never go out of style.> However, if you want to worship some other deity (or none at all) > PRIVATELY, then that's your right as a US citizen.so you get to worship yours publically, but Jerry has to take his into the closet? that's what "America" is about? entitlement? r b-j
Reply by ●December 22, 20062006-12-22
Randy Yates wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > >> Randy Yates wrote: >>> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >>>> [...] >>>> Why, thank you, Rick! I fit several of your descriptions [...] >>> Jerry, >>> I'll speak up and say that I find your comments (which I did not >>> repeat above) and your sentimentality offensive, unpatriotic, and >>> extremely contrary to the season. >> I think it a season which each of us should celebrate according to his >> lights*, but not in a way or in a place that imposes it on others. > > That's the point: I disagree with this attitude. This is the USA, and > when you agree to live here you agree to abide by certain cultural, > language, and, yes, even religious norms we observe here. That means > that observance and behavior conforming to these norms IN PUBLIC > is entirely acceptable.When the Government agrees to allow a creche alongside the steps of Town Hall, it undertakes to guard it on public property. That includes any religious symbol, no matter how odious you may find it. Suppose the council agreed to Baptist and Episcopalian installations, but declared that it was out of room when the Greek Orthodox asked permission for theirs? What would happen if the storefront Catholic Eglesia de St. Tomas were declared not sufficiently mainstream to qualify? I don't care about what your religion is or whether you have one, but you have to be out of your mind to decide that those decisions are worth making.> We speak English here. God is part of our *national* belief here.You know, Rev. Jerry Falwell declared "Separation of Church ans State is a myth, just like global warming. The fact is that many of the Founding Fathers who wrote church-state separation into the constitution were deists (maybe there's a god, but if so, He takes no note of worldly affairs). If we live in a Christian state, it's only because it was captured by the overzealous, and maybe it's time to take it back.> If > that offends you, leave. If you can't handle a little "public" > Christmas, there are several other countries to which you are free to > go where you would be accomodated.Most of them are theocracies. Theocracy and democracy are fundamentally incompatible, which is what makes our government's endorsement of any religion so scary. Government has no business or authority to declare what is or is not a religion. Allowing the symbols of any religion to adorn official buildings is an endorsement of that religion's status.> However, if you want to worship some other deity (or none at all) > PRIVATELY, then that's your right as a US citizen.The course you advocate makes in more likely that we'll lose that right. This is my last response to you on this subject. I don't want to rant, but (as I'm sure you felt when you first responded to me) you made some statements I couldn't let pass. Merry Christmas. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 23, 20062006-12-23
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:41:32 -0500, Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote:>Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: > >> Randy Yates wrote: >>> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes: >>>> [...] >>>> Why, thank you, Rick! I fit several of your descriptions [...] >>> Jerry, >>> I'll speak up and say that I find your comments (which I did not >>> repeat above) and your sentimentality offensive, unpatriotic, and >>> extremely contrary to the season. >> >> I think it a season which each of us should celebrate according to his >> lights*, but not in a way or in a place that imposes it on others. > >That's the point: I disagree with this attitude. This is the USA, and >when you agree to live here you agree to abide by certain cultural, >language, and, yes, even religious norms we observe here. That means >that observance and behavior conforming to these norms IN PUBLIC >is entirely acceptable. > >We speak English here. God is part of our *national* belief here. If >that offends you, leave. If you can't handle a little "public" >Christmas, there are several other countries to which you are free to >go where you would be accomodated. > >However, if you want to worship some other deity (or none at all) >PRIVATELY, then that's your right as a US citizen.With respect, Randy, but that's the sort of stance taken by the likes of the Taliban. It's not hard to see that the founding fathers of our government weren't especially religious people and understood quite well that keeping a strong and definite separation between church and state was crucial not only to national stability but to a fair government.>God is part of our *national* belief here.I'd disagree strongly with that. Our national belief (if anyone has the right to define it) is more about freedom of religion. The fact that many people in this country have been religious doesn't make it a national belief. "In God we Trust" and "Under God" were only added to our money and pledge in the last hundred years, with controversy in both cases. Not to mention that the singular use of "God" doesn't jive with the polytheists, who rightly have equal protection in this country as well as those, like myself, who eschew religion. It is the right of private property owners to put whatever religious ornamentation they so choose on their property, and it my right to not agree with them. Jerry's cited case was about use of government property, and I strongly agree with him that religious ornamentation on government property is a slippery slope, the bottom of which none of us wants to see. Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp. My opinions may not be Intel's opinions. http://www.ericjacobsen.org
Reply by ●December 23, 20062006-12-23
On 21 Dec 2006 15:15:52 -0800, "robert bristow-johnson" <rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote:> >Eric Jacobsen wrote: >... >> ... and sociopaths. > >why, thank you, Rev. > >> Eric Jacobsen >> Minister of Algorithms > >hey, you got another prayer for us, Parson? ya know, kinda one like >Patton required in that George C. Scott movie? a nice sociopathic one. > like may each rouge nation with nuclear weapons suffer nuclear >destruction in proportion to their possession of nukes. something like >that. > >r b-jMay your posts be free from error or offense and your threads end in peaceful consensus and conclusion. (sadly inspired by other parts of this thread) Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp. My opinions may not be Intel's opinions. http://www.ericjacobsen.org
Reply by ●December 23, 20062006-12-23
Eric Jacobsen wrote: ...> Not to mention that the singular use of "God" doesn't jive with the > polytheists, who rightly have equal protection in this country as well > as those, like myself, who eschew religion.We should remember when we honor him that Thomas Jefferson said in a speech to to the Virginia House of Delegates in 1776, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●December 23, 20062006-12-23
Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> writes:> [...] > With respect, Randy, but that's the sort of stance taken by the likes > of the Taliban.I think not. The Taliban will murder you for worshiping other Gods or practicing other religions.>>God is part of our *national* belief here. > > I'd disagree strongly with that.Take a look on any U.S. coin. Not only that, but "In God We Trust" is the official national motto of the U.S. http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml -- % Randy Yates % "Bird, on the wing, %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % goes floating by %%% 919-577-9882 % but there's a teardrop in his eye..." %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'One Summer Dream', *Face The Music*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
Reply by ●December 23, 20062006-12-23
Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> writes:> Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> writes: >> [...] >> With respect, Randy, but that's the sort of stance taken by the likes >> of the Taliban. > > I think not. The Taliban will murder you for worshiping other Gods or > practicing other religions. > >>>God is part of our *national* belief here. >> >> I'd disagree strongly with that. > > Take a look on any U.S. coin. Not only that, but "In God We Trust" is the > official national motto of the U.S. > > http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtmlOh, and by the way, this is confirmed in the last verse of our national anthem, Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation! Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our trust." And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave! http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anthem.html Our official, national association with God is also part of the official Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all. http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html You may not like it, and you may have some valid arguments against it, but that's the way it is. -- % Randy Yates % "Watching all the days go by... %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % Who are you and who am I?" %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Mission (A World Record)', %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % *A New World Record*, ELO http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
