Analog Devices comments on their web site that for oversampling to work the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signal bandwidth. So this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reduce the noise floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magical about 10x, but I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hz bandwidth limited signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all the samples would be the same value anyway since if the signal is truly bandlimited at 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be different between samples. So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered it as I am writing this post, funny how writing the question down does that! Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling rates greater then 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/d noise, clock noise, switching power supply noise and any other high frequency noise that sneaks in after the external analog filter or though an external a/d voltage reference.
Maximum useable oversampling rate10x analog signal bandwidth?
Started by ●January 22, 2005
Reply by ●January 22, 20052005-01-22
steve wrote:> Analog Devices comments on their web site that for oversampling to work > the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signal bandwidth. So > this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reduce the noise > floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magical about 10x, but > I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hz bandwidth limited > signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all the samples would > be the same value anyway since if the signal is truly bandlimited at > 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be different between samples. > So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered it as I am > writing this post, funny how writing the question down does that! > > Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling rates greater then > 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/d noise, clock > noise, switching power supply noise and any other high frequency noise > that sneaks in after the external analog filter or though an external > a/d voltage reference.If they really said that more than 10x won't work, then your explanation doesn't either, but I doubt that they say it. If they say that more than 10x is pointless, I guess that's true. The signal is contaminated by any noise produced by the sampling chain within the signal's band. and any outside the band can be filtered out regardless of the sample rate. I don't really understand your question either. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●January 22, 20052005-01-22
"steve" <bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1106449193.210985.208270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...> Analog Devices comments on their web site that foroversampling to work> the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signalbandwidth. So> this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reducethe noise> floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magicalabout 10x, but> I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hzbandwidth limited> signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all thesamples would> be the same value anyway since if the signal is trulybandlimited at> 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be differentbetween samples.> So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered itas I am> writing this post, funny how writing the question downdoes that!> > Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling ratesgreater then> 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/dnoise, clock> noise, switching power supply noise and any other highfrequency noise> that sneaks in after the external analog filter or thoughan external> a/d voltage reference. >Once upon a time, I designed a controller to sample at 1200 Hz. even though it was for a system whose natural time constants were measured in tens of seconds. The reason was that I could easily apply a post sampling digital filter that would reduce 60 Hz and 120 Hz noise picked up from the environment to levels that were below the quantization level. Also, it was a lot easier to implement an anti-aliasing analog filter for 600 Hz than it would have been to implement one for 1 Hz.
Reply by ●January 22, 20052005-01-22
Jerry Avins wrote:> steve wrote: > > Analog Devices comments on their web site that for oversampling towork> > the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signalbandwidth. So> > this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reduce the noise > > floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magical about 10x,but> > I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hz bandwidthlimited> > signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all the sampleswould> > be the same value anyway since if the signal is truly bandlimitedat> > 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be different betweensamples.> > So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered it as I am > > writing this post, funny how writing the question down does that! > > > > Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling rates greaterthen> > 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/d noise,clock> > noise, switching power supply noise and any other high frequencynoise> > that sneaks in after the external analog filter or though anexternal> > a/d voltage reference. > > If they really said that more than 10x won't work, then yourexplanation> doesn't either, but I doubt that they say it. If they say that morethan> 10x is pointless, I guess that's true. The signal is contaminated byany> noise produced by the sampling chain within the signal's band. andany> outside the band can be filtered out regardless of the sample rate. I > don't really understand your question either. > > Jerry > -- > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you canget.>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF Analog Devices quote from web site "For oversampling to work, samples need to be taken at a rate no faster than 10 times the analog bandwidth"
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
John E. Hadstate wrote:> "steve" <bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1106449193.210985.208270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Analog Devices comments on their web site that for > oversampling to work > > the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signal > bandwidth. So > > this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reduce > the noise > > floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magical > about 10x, but > > I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hz > bandwidth limited > > signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all the > samples would > > be the same value anyway since if the signal is truly > bandlimited at > > 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be different > between samples. > > So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered it > as I am > > writing this post, funny how writing the question down > does that! > > > > Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling rates > greater then > > 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/d > noise, clock > > noise, switching power supply noise and any other high > frequency noise > > that sneaks in after the external analog filter or though > an external > > a/d voltage reference. > > > > Once upon a time, I designed a controller to sample at 1200 > Hz. even though it was for a system whose natural time > constants were measured in tens of seconds. The reason was > that I could easily apply a post sampling digital filter > that would reduce 60 Hz and 120 Hz noise picked up from the > environment to levels that were below the quantization > level. Also, it was a lot easier to implement an > anti-aliasing analog filter for 600 Hz than it would have > been to implement one for 1 Hz.Yes, very good reasons for oversampling greater then 10x signal BW, that 1Hz filter would of been huge, thanks for the info.
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
steve wrote: ...> Analog Devices quote from web site > "For oversampling to work, samples need to be taken at a rate no faster > than 10 times the analog bandwidth"Could you say where that is on the website? The context is crucial. However high the oversampling ratio, the original signal can be reconstructed. What does "working" consist of? Jerry P.S. I garbled part of my previous message. It should have been (in part) "The signal is contaminated by any noise produced by the sampling chain within the signal's band, and any noise outside the band can be filtered out regardless of the sample rate." -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
John E. Hadstate wrote:> "steve" <bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1106449193.210985.208270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Analog Devices comments on their web site that for > oversampling to work > > the sample rate cannot be over 10 times the analog signal > bandwidth. So > > this defines the upper bounds on how much you can reduce > the noise > > floor of an analog signal. So I am thinking what magical > about 10x, but > > I suppose they are implying that if you had a 100hz > bandwidth limited > > signal and oversampled it 1024 times at 1Ghz rate all the > samples would > > be the same value anyway since if the signal is truly > bandlimited at > > 100Hz it couldn't change quick enough to be different > between samples. > > So whats the question? Well I guess I actually answered it > as I am > > writing this post, funny how writing the question down > does that! > > > > Thinking about it some more I suppose oversampling rates > greater then > > 10x the signal bandwidth could help to reduce internal a/d > noise, clock > > noise, switching power supply noise and any other high > frequency noise > > that sneaks in after the external analog filter or though > an external > > a/d voltage reference. > > > > Once upon a time, I designed a controller to sample at 1200 > Hz. even though it was for a system whose natural time > constants were measured in tens of seconds. The reason was > that I could easily apply a post sampling digital filter > that would reduce 60 Hz and 120 Hz noise picked up from the > environment to levels that were below the quantization > level. Also, it was a lot easier to implement an > anti-aliasing analog filter for 600 Hz than it would have > been to implement one for 1 Hz.Yes, very good reasons for oversampling greater then 10x signal BW, that 1Hz filter would be huge, thanks for the info.
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:35gokqF4lh664U1@individual.net...> steve wrote: > > ... > > > Analog Devices quote from web site > > "For oversampling to work, samples need to be taken at arate no faster> > than 10 times the analog bandwidth" > > Could you say where that is on the website? The context iscrucial.> However high the oversampling ratio, the original signalcan be> reconstructed. What does "working" consist of? >I think the quote from the website is clear (and correct) if you read it while patting your head and rubbing your tummy ;-) In other words, you don't have to sample faster than about 10 times the analog bandwidth for oversampling to be used effectively. It does not say that you can't sample faster; it just says you don't have to sample faster. Besides being confusingly worded, it's a simplistic statement. There may be very good reasons for oversampling faster than 10x the highest analog frequency. Consider, for example, issues involving propagation delays and latencies.
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
Jerry Avins wrote:> steve wrote: > > ... > > > Analog Devices quote from web site > > "For oversampling to work, samples need to be taken at a rate nofaster> > than 10 times the analog bandwidth" > > Could you say where that is on the website? The context is crucial. > However high the oversampling ratio, the original signal can be > reconstructed. What does "working" consist of? > > Jerry > > P.S. I garbled part of my previous message. It should have been (in > part) "The signal is contaminated by any noise produced by thesampling> chain within the signal's band, and any noise outside the band can be > filtered out regardless of the sample rate." > -- > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you canget.>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF see part 8 of http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/static/techSupport/designTools/interactiv= eTools/accelerometer/adxl202.html Another thing I didn't understand was why the bandwidth is reduced by oversampling, I thought the whole purpose of oversampling was to maintained the signal bandwidth at reduced noise at the expense of faster a/d conversions. I certainly can see if you oversampled but kept the sampling rate constant you would reduce the bandwidth, but I wouldn't call that oversampling (and from the online calculator, the sample rate does increase with increase samples, yet the bandwidth still drops).
Reply by ●January 23, 20052005-01-23
"John E. Hadstate" <jh113355@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:V8OId.6180$Gj.1929@bignews3.bellsouth.net...> > "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message > news:35gokqF4lh664U1@individual.net... >> steve wrote: >> >> ... >> >> > Analog Devices quote from web site >> > "For oversampling to work, samples need to be taken at a > rate no faster >> > than 10 times the analog bandwidth" >> >> Could you say where that is on the website? The context is > crucial. >> However high the oversampling ratio, the original signal > can be >> reconstructed. What does "working" consist of? >> > > I think the quote from the website is clear (and correct) if > you read it while patting your head and rubbing your tummy > ;-) In other words, you don't have to sample faster than > about 10 times the analog bandwidth for oversampling to be > used effectively. It does not say that you can't sample > faster; it just says you don't have to sample faster. > > Besides being confusingly worded, it's a simplistic > statement. There may be very good reasons for oversampling > faster than 10x the highest analog frequency. Consider, for > example, issues involving propagation delays and latencies.If you parse the sentence, it seems to say: fs<=10*B which is probably not at all what anyone would agree with because values of fs like fs=B would be allowed. or, if you focus on the word "need" then: min[fs]=10*B and, the phrase "need to be taken at a rate no faster than" is a very awkward way to say: "you don't need to sample at a rate higher than" rather than "you need to sample at a rate not higher than" It looks like a marketing edit with a misplaced negative... Fred