Hey, I'm a high school student and sort of new to cross correlation. I'm doing a computer science project that creates interference fringes from the input from two radio JOVE antennas seperated by a fixed distance, say D. For now, however, I'm trying to get the software aspect of this project. I need to perform cross correlation on the data coming in, as it comes in. So far, through my research, I can only find ways of cross-correlating two series that are static (meaning, they don't gain new points as time increases) or that can be represented as functions. Unfortunately, my input is neither static (since new data is constantly being received) nor representable by functions. In that case, any suggestions how I might be able to carry out the fastest possible cross correlation algorithm? IT's also important that the speed is relatively fast. I'm willing to try anything, even if it takes a little research. But please, considering my skill level, it would be nice to provide some explanation with your answers, thanks! Oh yeah, so far, what I've tried to do is seperate my continuous stream of data into buffers of length L. Then, I perform cross correlation on each buffer from source 1 and 2. So, I correlate buffer L1 (source 1) and L1 (source 2), then add that to buffer L2 and L2, then L3 and L3... However, I don't think this is the same as cross correlating (source 1)(L1 +L2 + L3 + L4...) and (source 2)(L1 + L2 + L3 + L4...)

# High School Student - cross correlation on radio data

Started by ●January 1, 2006

Reply by ●January 1, 20062006-01-01

"vnshaolin" <vnshaolin@gmail.com> wrote in message news:xqGdnQ71J7eQgCXenZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@giganews.com...> Hey, I'm a high school student and sort of new to cross correlation. I'm > doing a computer science project that creates interference fringes from > the input from two radio JOVE antennas seperated by a fixed distance, say > D. > > For now, however, I'm trying to get the software aspect of this project. > I need to perform cross correlation on the data coming in, as it comes in. > So far, through my research, I can only find ways of cross-correlatingtwo> series that are static (meaning, they don't gain new points as time > increases) or that can be represented as functions. Unfortunately, my > input is neither static (since new data is constantly being received) nor > representable by functions. In that case, any suggestions how I might be > able to carry out the fastest possible cross correlation algorithm? IT's > also important that the speed is relatively fast. I'm willing to try > anything, even if it takes a little research. But please, considering my > skill level, it would be nice to provide some explanation with your > answers, thanks! > > Oh yeah, so far, what I've tried to do is seperate my continuous stream of > data into buffers of length L. Then, I perform cross correlation on each > buffer from source 1 and 2. So, I correlate buffer L1 (source 1) and L1 > (source 2), then add that to buffer L2 and L2, then L3 and L3... However, > I don't think this is the same as cross correlating (source 1)(L1 +L2 + L3 > + L4...) and (source 2)(L1 + L2 + L3 + L4...) > >The fastest way is to use FFTs but for high-school it takes a little explaining. What's your hardware like? Tam

Reply by ●January 1, 20062006-01-01

Yeah, I've read up a little on FFT's too. The major requisite of the program is to show mastery of computer concepts (like encapsulation, and so forth). So, I don't have to truly understand FFT on an intuitive level. Just knowing the algorithm for it would work as far as my project goes. Of course, it would help me personally if you can explain it in terms of achieving my goal. In addition, the hardware I have is not very sophisicated. The input from the two radio JOVES are coming in through a soundcard on the computer. Thus, the data will be represented as a series of audio bytes. This can, of course, be converted to understand data quite easily. So, can you explain how you would perform FFT on a data set? For my first milestone, all I'm concerned with is having it work with sample data, so hardware is not a major issue.

Reply by ●January 1, 20062006-01-01

"vnshaolin" <vnshaolin@gmail.com> wrote in message news:Gpadnc0Cwvtd3SXeRVn-rg@giganews.com...> Yeah, I've read up a little on FFT's too. The major requisite of the > program is to show mastery of computer concepts (like encapsulation, and > so forth). So, I don't have to truly understand FFT on an intuitive > level. Just knowing the algorithm for it would work as far as my project > goes. Of course, it would help me personally if you can explain it in > terms of achieving my goal. > > In addition, the hardware I have is not very sophisicated. The input from > the two radio JOVES are coming in through a soundcard on the computer. > Thus, the data will be represented as a series of audio bytes. This can, > of course, be converted to understand data quite easily. > > So, can you explain how you would perform FFT on a data set? For my first > milestone, all I'm concerned with is having it work with sample data, so > hardware is not a major issue. >Ok so you need to know your sampling rate. It will be 44.1kHz or half that or half again. The signals should be stereo and 8 or 16 bits. The FFT is a fast way of performing a Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT). You will need to write code or copy it from elsewhere to do an FFT. You need two FFTs - one perchannel. I am a little confused as to what you are sampling - on a PC you can only handle audio signals - if you use a sound card. Are you sampling the audio from the two radios and calculating the time-delay? Tam

Reply by ●January 1, 20062006-01-01

>Ok so you need to know your sampling rate. It will be 44.1kHz or halfthat>or half again. The signals should be stereo and 8 or 16 bits. The FFT isa>fast way of performing a Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT). You will needto>write code or copy it from elsewhere to do an FFT. You need two FFTs -one>perchannel. I am a little confused as to what you are sampling - on a PCyou>can only handle audio signals - if you use a sound card. Are yousampling>the audio from the two radios and calculating the time-delay? > >Tam > > >How do you know that it's going to be 44.1 khz or half that or half again? Also, yeah, I consider that it might be stereo. But of course, depending on how the hardware is considered, it could just be two seperate incoming audio stream (I'm using JAVA, but I won't go into specifics here). But as far as what you are saying with FFT's, I'm trying to perform constructive interference on two incoming signal sources (represented as audio data, of course). I don't fully understand what FFT is suppose to do, so, is it the right thing to choose for my project? Right now, my program operates on two possibilities: Two separate audio streams are coming in through the sound card, and my program is going to cross-correlate them (either through FFT, or otherwise, this is where I need help). Another possibility is that both sources will be represented as stereo (so, source 1 is left channel, and source 2 is right channel). This just means I need to separate the channels, and perform cross-correlation(either through FFT or some other method). Thus, my main question is, how do I go about performing cross-correlation on STREAMING DATA? The ultimate goal is interference. Thanks for your help thus far!

Reply by ●January 1, 20062006-01-01

"vnshaolin" <vnshaolin@gmail.com> writes:> Hey, I'm a high school student and sort of new to cross correlation. I'm > doing a computer science project that creates interference fringes from > the input from two radio JOVE antennas seperated by a fixed distance, say > D. > > For now, however, I'm trying to get the software aspect of this project. > I need to perform cross correlation on the data coming in, as it comes in. > So far, through my research, I can only find ways of cross-correlating two > series that are static (meaning, they don't gain new points as time > increases) or that can be represented as functions. Unfortunately, my > input is neither static (since new data is constantly being received) nor > representable by functions. In that case, any suggestions how I might be > able to carry out the fastest possible cross correlation algorithm? IT's > also important that the speed is relatively fast. I'm willing to try > anything, even if it takes a little research. But please, considering my > skill level, it would be nice to provide some explanation with your > answers, thanks! > > Oh yeah, so far, what I've tried to do is seperate my continuous stream of > data into buffers of length L. Then, I perform cross correlation on each > buffer from source 1 and 2. So, I correlate buffer L1 (source 1) and L1 > (source 2), then add that to buffer L2 and L2, then L3 and L3... However, > I don't think this is the same as cross correlating (source 1)(L1 +L2 + L3 > + L4...) and (source 2)(L1 + L2 + L3 + L4...)Two points: 1. What is your definition of cross-correlation? The definition that I think you want is at http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/other/correlate/ 2. It is quite unusual to attempt to compute a cross-correlation of two sequences that continue indefinitely. We may be able to get a better grasp on your problem if back up and explain to us *why* you are attempting to perform a cross-correlation in this manner. -- % Randy Yates % "Midnight, on the water... %% Fuquay-Varina, NC % I saw... the ocean's daughter." %%% 919-577-9882 % 'Can't Get It Out Of My Head' %%%% <yates@ieee.org> % *El Dorado*, Electric Light Orchestra http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Reply by ●January 2, 20062006-01-02

"vnshaolin" <vnshaolin@gmail.com> wrote in message news:QPWdnbRzZI5VCiXeRVn-rg@giganews.com...> >Ok so you need to know your sampling rate. It will be 44.1kHz or half > that > >or half again. The signals should be stereo and 8 or 16 bits. The FFT is > a > >fast way of performing a Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT). You will need > to > >write code or copy it from elsewhere to do an FFT. You need two FFTs - > one > >perchannel. I am a little confused as to what you are sampling - on a PC > you > >can only handle audio signals - if you use a sound card. Are you > sampling > >the audio from the two radios and calculating the time-delay? > > > >Tam > > > > > > > > How do you know that it's going to be 44.1 khz or half that or half again? > Also, yeah, I consider that it might be stereo. But of course, depending > on how the hardware is considered, it could just be two seperate incoming > audio stream (I'm using JAVA, but I won't go into specifics here). But as > far as what you are saying with FFT's, I'm trying to perform constructive > interference on two incoming signal sources (represented as audio data, of > course). I don't fully understand what FFT is suppose to do, so, is itthe> right thing to choose for my project? > > Right now, my program operates on two possibilities: Two separate audio > streams are coming in through the sound card, and my program is going to > cross-correlate them (either through FFT, or otherwise, this is where I > need help). Another possibility is that both sources will be represented > as stereo (so, source 1 is left channel, and source 2 is right channel). > This just means I need to separate the channels, and perform > cross-correlation(either through FFT or some other method). Thus, my main > question is, how do I go about performing cross-correlation on STREAMING > DATA? The ultimate goal is interference. Thanks for your help thus far!Sound cards (the majority) only sample at the rates I gave above. Cross correlation is done in batches and continuously updated. This is done in acoustic source finding for example. To use FFTs you will need to compute the inverse FFT of cross-spectral density.(CSD). CSD can be found for a frame i from CSD(i)=beta x CSD(i-1)+(1-beta) x X(i)Y(i)* where * is complex conjugate and beta is a forgetting factor.(say 0.9). X and Y are the frequency vectors obtained from the FFTS of the two channels. Ypu won't get brilliant results with ordinary cross correlations as it only works well when the signals are white. It should do for your project though. The improved version uses Generalized cross correlation. Tam

Reply by ●January 2, 20062006-01-02

I may be missing something. I don't think that the correlation you're interested in doing can be properly accomplished using the detected output from a radio receiver. I think that it must be done at the carrier frequency. Once the signal has been detected, the high resolultion information is gone. You can hetrodyne the carrier down to a lower frequency to make the processing easier if the hetrodyning signals are identical in frequency and phase. In article <QPWdnbRzZI5VCiXeRVn-rg@giganews.com>, "vnshaolin" <vnshaolin@gmail.com> wrote:>>Ok so you need to know your sampling rate. It will be 44.1kHz or half >that >>or half again. The signals should be stereo and 8 or 16 bits. The FFT is >a >>fast way of performing a Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT). You will need >to >>write code or copy it from elsewhere to do an FFT. You need two FFTs - >one >>perchannel. I am a little confused as to what you are sampling - on a PC >you >>can only handle audio signals - if you use a sound card. Are you >sampling >>the audio from the two radios and calculating the time-delay? >> >>Tam >> >> >> > >How do you know that it's going to be 44.1 khz or half that or half again? > Also, yeah, I consider that it might be stereo. But of course, depending >on how the hardware is considered, it could just be two seperate incoming >audio stream (I'm using JAVA, but I won't go into specifics here). But as >far as what you are saying with FFT's, I'm trying to perform constructive >interference on two incoming signal sources (represented as audio data, of >course). I don't fully understand what FFT is suppose to do, so, is it the >right thing to choose for my project? > >Right now, my program operates on two possibilities: Two separate audio >streams are coming in through the sound card, and my program is going to >cross-correlate them (either through FFT, or otherwise, this is where I >need help). Another possibility is that both sources will be represented >as stereo (so, source 1 is left channel, and source 2 is right channel). >This just means I need to separate the channels, and perform >cross-correlation(either through FFT or some other method). Thus, my main >question is, how do I go about performing cross-correlation on STREAMING >DATA? The ultimate goal is interference. Thanks for your help thus far!

Reply by ●January 2, 20062006-01-02

>Sound cards (the majority) only sample at the rates I gave above. >Cross correlation is done in batches and continuously updated. This isdone>in acoustic source finding for example. >To use FFTs you will need to compute the inverse FFT of cross-spectral >density.(CSD). CSD can be found for a frame i from > >CSD(i)=beta x CSD(i-1)+(1-beta) x X(i)Y(i)* > >where * is complex conjugate and beta is a forgetting factor.(say 0.9).X>and Y are the frequency vectors obtained from the FFTS of the twochannels.>Ypu won't get brilliant results with ordinary cross correlations as itonly>works well when the signals are white. It should do for your projectthough.>The improved version uses Generalized cross correlation. > >Tam > > >Okay, so let me just put everything in perspective. I have streams of data coming in from sourceA and sourceB. Since the data is continuous, my program will read it in buffers of length L. In order to do cross-correlation "indefinetely", I'll have to do it by batches of these buffers, like, the 1st for source A and B, then the 2nd for source A and B. My question: do I add up the resulting cross correlation "signal" with the other cross correlation "signals" derived from the other buffers? Okay, and with your answer concerning CSD, what exactly is the complex conjugate X(i)Y(i) term, and how am I suppose to find it? The information I have for the signals are as follows (as can be obtained from the JAVA library): bigEndian or not, # of channels, frame rate, frame size, sample rate, sample size in bits. I guess my main question is, if X and Y are the frequency vectors of FFTS of the two channels, how am I suppose to get them? If you can help me out, or point me somewhere where it provides more information, it'll be appreciated. I tried googling the new information you gave me, but most of the sites that came up were too technical for me to understand.

Reply by ●January 2, 20062006-01-02

"John Herman" <John_W_Herman@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Fecuf.10055$hI1.6094@tornado.socal.rr.com...> I may be missing something. I don't think that the correlation you're > interested in doing can be properly accomplished using the detected output > from a radio receiver. I think that it must be done at the carrierfrequency.> Once the signal has been detected, the high resolultion information isgone.> You can hetrodyne the carrier down to a lower frequency to make theprocessing> easier if the hetrodyning signals are identical in frequency and phase. > >Yes I was wondering about that as well and I am sure you are right. This makes it harder than expected and a bit above the scope of a high-school project. You will need to do some sums and ask your teacher for furtehr information. As for complex conjugate - for a complex number A+JB it is A-JB. Tam