do they make $10 SHArCs anymore?

there used to be an ADSP-21161 that was about $10 at Digi-Key.  now
the cheapest SHArC i can see at Digi-Key is the ADSP-21262 which is
about $20.  i thought the older ADSP-21065L was under $10 eventually.
didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?

i know about the ADI Sigma chips, but don't you think there would be a
modern and cheap SHArC that is a little stripped down that would sell
for US$10 or less?

thanks for info.

r b-j

robert bristow-johnson <rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote in 
news:1184190887.230087.177120@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> there used to be an ADSP-21161 that was about $10 at Digi-Key.  now
> the cheapest SHArC i can see at Digi-Key is the ADSP-21262 which is
> about $20.  i thought the older ADSP-21065L was under $10 eventually.
> didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?
> 
> i know about the ADI Sigma chips, but don't you think there would be a
> modern and cheap SHArC that is a little stripped down that would sell
> for US$10 or less?
> 
> thanks for info.
> 
> r b-j
> 
> 

Robert,

The 21161 has never been $10.

The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA version 
is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is under $10 
(Qty 1000).

DigiKey is the highest priced source for ADI DSPs. They charge more than 
Analog Devices' list price.

You don't want to use an old 21065L for a new design. The best choices are 
21369 or 2137x parts.


-- 
Al Clark
Danville Signal Processing, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Purveyors of Fine DSP Hardware and other Cool Stuff
Available at http://www.danvillesignal.com

robert bristow-johnson wrote:

> there used to be an ADSP-21161 that was about $10 at Digi-Key.  now
> the cheapest SHArC i can see at Digi-Key is the ADSP-21262 which is
> about $20.  i thought the older ADSP-21065L was under $10 eventually.

The 21065 was advertized as $9.95; I doubt if anybody could really buy 
it for that price.

> didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?

The 21261 was advertized as a floating point machine below $5.

> i know about the ADI Sigma chips, but don't you think there would be a
> modern and cheap SHArC that is a little stripped down that would sell
> for US$10 or less?

SHARC is old, slow, inconvenient for hw and sw and power hungry. You may 
want to consider ADI BlackFin. The BlackFin 53x are nice, easy to 
develop, relatively simple and cheap.


Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com

On Jul 11, 7:40 pm, Al Clark <acl...@danvillesignal.com> wrote:
> robert bristow-johnson <r...@audioimagination.com> wrote innews:1184190887.230087.177120@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>
> > there used to be an ADSP-21161 that was about $10 at Digi-Key.  now
> > the cheapest SHArC i can see at Digi-Key is the ADSP-21262 which is
> > about $20.  i thought the older ADSP-21065L was under $10 eventually.
> > didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?
>
> > i know about the ADI Sigma chips, but don't you think there would be a
> > modern and cheap SHArC that is a little stripped down that would sell
> > for US$10 or less?
>
> > thanks for info.
>
> > r b-j
>
> Robert,
>
> The 21161 has never been $10.

at one time (now they don't) i saw something at DigiKey for $10.75 and
i think it was an old 21161 in some cheap package.

> The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA version
> is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is under $10
> (Qty 1000).
>
> DigiKey is the highest priced source for ADI DSPs. They charge more than
> Analog Devices' list price.

i knew that DigiKey was not a good parts source, but i was trying to
look at rough prices in order to make arguments with people who design
ASICs.

> You don't want to use an old 21065L for a new design.

i know, i just remembered it as a cheap SHArC.

> The best choices are 21369 or 2137x parts.
...

On Jul 11, 7:59 pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> The 21065 was advertized as $9.95; I doubt if anybody could really buy
> it for that price.
>
> > didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?
>
> The 21261 was advertized as a floating point machine below $5.
>
...
> SHARC is old, slow, inconvenient for hw and sw and power hungry. You may
> want to consider ADI BlackFin. The BlackFin 53x are nice, easy to
> develop, relatively simple and cheap.

well, once in a while the floating-point comes in handy (like with
high-speed coefficient calculation for IIR filters).  but i have
written work-arounds in fixed-point machines before.

r b-j

Al Clark wrote:
> robert bristow-johnson <rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote in 
> news:1184190887.230087.177120@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
> 
>> there used to be an ADSP-21161 that was about $10 at Digi-Key.  now
>> the cheapest SHArC i can see at Digi-Key is the ADSP-21262 which is
>> about $20.  i thought the older ADSP-21065L was under $10 eventually.
>> didn't they replace that with a newer chip that's just as cheap?
>>
>> i know about the ADI Sigma chips, but don't you think there would be a
>> modern and cheap SHArC that is a little stripped down that would sell
>> for US$10 or less?
>>
>> thanks for info.
>>
>> r b-j
>>
>>
> 
> Robert,
> 
> The 21161 has never been $10.

I very much doubt that, unless you are buying mere handfuls. It puzzles 
me why so many engineers quote some meaningless over the top low volume 
distributor offering as a component price. Its like saying a car part 
costs what the spares dealer charges you - true for Joe public, but not 
for people in the industry.

> The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA version 
> is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is under $10 
> (Qty 1000).

I guess <$10 for 1000 probably means the price is about $3 to $4 when 
you are serious about ordering.

> DigiKey is the highest priced source for ADI DSPs. They charge more than 
> Analog Devices' list price.
> 
> You don't want to use an old 21065L for a new design. The best choices are 
> 21369 or 2137x parts.

Steve

r b-j wrote:
> Al Clark wrote:
>
...
> > Robert,
>
> > The 21161 has never been $10.
>
> at one time (now they don't) i saw something at DigiKey for $10.75 and
> i think it was an old 21161 in some cheap package.
>
> > The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA
> > version
> > is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is
> > under $10 (Qty 1000).
>
> > DigiKey is the highest priced source for ADI DSPs. They charge more
> > than Analog Devices' list price.
>
> i knew that DigiKey was not a good parts source, but i was trying to
> look at rough prices in order to make arguments with people who design
> ASICs.
>
> > You don't want to use an old 21065L for a new design.
>
> i know, i just remembered it as a cheap SHArC.

You can have a look at their DSP Selection Guide (4.9 MB),
which gives quite useful processor detail and prices for 1k quantity:

http://www.analog.com/processors/EP_DSP_Sel_Guide_2007_Web.pdf

The 21065L is still listed, but is more than three times as expensive
as their new lowcost DSP 21261. To compare MFLOPS/$, look at

http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/static/promotions/floatingPoint/index.html

Regards,
Andor

On Jul 11, 9:01 pm, Steve Underwood <ste...@dis.org> wrote:
> Al Clark wrote:
...
> > The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA version
> > is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is under $10
> > (Qty 1000).
>
> I guess <$10 for 1000 probably means the price is about $3 to $4 when
> you are serious about ordering.

well, i've never been invovled in purchasing and negotiating these
things, but Steve, in the MI (musical instrument) and pro-audio niche,
qty of 1000 is not low.  it's not the cell phone market.  qty 1000 is
a lot.  this is why Al can make money OEMing little SHArC boards
(dunno that he does to the MI or pro-audio market, but he might)
because sometimes these products we do sell only hundreds.

r b-j

robert bristow-johnson wrote:
> On Jul 11, 9:01 pm, Steve Underwood <ste...@dis.org> wrote:
>> Al Clark wrote:
> ...
>>> The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA version
>>> is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be released) is under $10
>>> (Qty 1000).
>> I guess <$10 for 1000 probably means the price is about $3 to $4 when
>> you are serious about ordering.
> 
> well, i've never been invovled in purchasing and negotiating these
> things, but Steve, in the MI (musical instrument) and pro-audio niche,
> qty of 1000 is not low.  it's not the cell phone market.  qty 1000 is
> a lot.  this is why Al can make money OEMing little SHArC boards
> (dunno that he does to the MI or pro-audio market, but he might)
> because sometimes these products we do sell only hundreds.

I hear of more and more professional studio equipment makers who buy all 
their DSPs through grey markets. If they just go to the vendors, or 
their first tier distributors, for advanced DSPs they get bogged down in 
export control issues. The grey market lets them dodge a lot of this 
hassle. Of course, the export control are supposed to avoid such 
loopholes, but well........

Steve

Steve Underwood <steveu@dis.org> wrote in
news:f76h03$omo$1@nnews.pacific.net.hk: 

> robert bristow-johnson wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 9:01 pm, Steve Underwood <ste...@dis.org> wrote:
>>> Al Clark wrote:
>> ...
>>>> The least expensive SHARC is the ADSP-21261 in BGA. I think the BGA
>>>> version is under $6 at Qty 1000.  The ADSP-21375 (soon to be
>>>> released) is under $10 (Qty 1000).
>>> I guess <$10 for 1000 probably means the price is about $3 to $4
>>> when you are serious about ordering.
>> 
>> well, i've never been invovled in purchasing and negotiating these
>> things, but Steve, in the MI (musical instrument) and pro-audio
>> niche, qty of 1000 is not low.  it's not the cell phone market.  qty
>> 1000 is a lot.  this is why Al can make money OEMing little SHArC
>> boards (dunno that he does to the MI or pro-audio market, but he
>> might) because sometimes these products we do sell only hundreds.
> 
> I hear of more and more professional studio equipment makers who buy
> all their DSPs through grey markets. If they just go to the vendors,
> or their first tier distributors, for advanced DSPs they get bogged
> down in export control issues. The grey market lets them dodge a lot
> of this hassle. Of course, the export control are supposed to avoid
> such loopholes, but well........
> 
> Steve
> 

We never buy our DSPs via the grey market and we never have exporting 
problems. The SHARC (and most DSPs) are below the MIPs threshold for most 
restrictions. You do have to avoid the "bad" countries. 

It also helps to know how to fill out the paperwork, etc.

There are lots of vertical markets for DSP embedded boards that are in 
the hundreds (or less). This is the niche that our company thrives in. If 
you needs thousands of boards, you might design your own hardware or hire 
a consultant. If you need hundreds, it's cheaper (and safer) to buy ours.

If you spend $50k writing software for a board and you need 1000, the 
cost is $50/board. Sometimes, searching for the cheapest part is bad 
economics. This is one of the reasons the SHARC is good for smaller 
production volumes. It is a 32 bit fixed and floating point DSP. Chances 
are that you can write code faster than on a less flexible processor, for 
example a fixed point DSP with lower precision. 


-- 
Al Clark
Danville Signal Processing, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Purveyors of Fine DSP Hardware and other Cool Stuff
Available at http://www.danvillesignal.com