Hi, We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity. How to derive this using IFFT equation?? Regards Bharat Pathak Arithos Designs www.Arithos.com

# how to derive IFFT of boxcar filter

Started by ●February 22, 2008

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

"bharat pathak" <bharat@arithos.com> wrote in message news:kNidndDZBvps-CPanZ2dnUVZ_hisnZ2d@giganews.com...> Hi, > > We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity.Bharat, The IFFT of a brickwall will look like a Dirichlet - periodic. The Inverse Fourier Transform of a perfect lowpass will look like sinx/x with infinite extent. Fred

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

>Bharat, > >The IFFT of a brickwall will look like a Dirichlet - periodic. > >The Inverse Fourier Transform of a perfect lowpass will look like sinx/x>with infinite extent. > >FredFred, In that case, why don't we make the periodic - dirichlet as our start point for window based FIR designs?? Instead of using sinx/x as our start point. Will using periodic dirichlet, be better? Also in this case will the Gibbs oscillations completely disappear, thus not needing any windowing approach. I am just thinking loud.......or am I just moving in circles?? Regards Bharat

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On Feb 21, 10:04 pm, "bharat pathak" <bha...@arithos.com> wrote:> Hi, > > We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity.The FT of a rectangle is of sin(x)/x shape. But this isn't precisely true for a finite length IFFT of sampled data containing a rectangle. What you have instead is the sum of two Dirichlet (periodic Sinc) functions.> How to derive this using IFFT equation??...thus you can't. What you can do is to take the definite integral of complex exponentials of unit magnitude, which constitute the basis functions of the FT. IMHO. YMMV. -- rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On Feb 21, 10:38 pm, "bharat pathak" <bha...@arithos.com> wrote:> >Bharat, > > >The IFFT of a brickwall will look like a Dirichlet - periodic. > > >The Inverse Fourier Transform of a perfect lowpass will look like sinx/x > >with infinite extent. > > >Fred > > Fred, > > In that case, why don't we make the periodic - dirichlet as our > start point for window based FIR designs?? > > Instead of using sinx/x as our start point. > > Will using periodic dirichlet, be better?The Sinc and the Dirichlet are usually identical to around 3 or 4 decimal places for the first several lobes of typical width filters, the Sinc being the already very slightly windowed version of the Dirichlet for the first half of the transform. Thus the difference is negligible compared to the effects of any window applied.> Also in this case will the Gibbs oscillations completely disappear, > thus not needing any windowing approach.Also, the un-windowed Dirichlet has more high frequency content than the Sinc, so it might be even more likely to contribute to sharp transients in the other domain. IMHO. YMMV. -- rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On 22 Feb, 07:04, "bharat pathak" <bha...@arithos.com> wrote:> Hi, > > � We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > � Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > � sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity. > > � How to derive this using IFFT equation??If you want to do that formally, you need to dig rather deep into the theory of complex analytic functions. The only place I have attempted to do that stuff is in a non-compulsary (for EE students) class on complex maths. If you have the 4th edition of the Proakis & Manolakis book, check out ch. 3.1.2, particuarly eq.3.1.13 to see what you are up against. Rune

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 00:04:33 -0600, "bharat pathak" <bharat@arithos.com> wrote:>Hi, > > We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity. > > How to derive this using IFFT equation?? > >Regards >Bharat Pathak > >Arithos DesignsHi Bharat, If I remember correctly, you have copy of the 2nd edition of my DSP book. Perhaps the discussion on page 107 will be of some help to you. Regards, [-Rick-]

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On Feb 22, 1:04�am, "bharat pathak" <bha...@arithos.com> wrote:> Hi, > > � We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > � Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > � sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity. > > � How to derive this using IFFT equation?? > > Regards > Bharat Pathak > > Arithos Designswww.Arithos.comHello Bharat, Seems you have use for easy prove equation (can prove by induction if maths geek): sum (for i=0..N-1) of (ALPHA^i) = (1-ALPHA^N)/(1-ALPHA), good for APLHA != 0 if N finite. Regards, Kamar Ruptan DSP Guru

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

On Feb 22, 9:53�am, DSPGURU <krup...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Feb 22, 1:04�am, "bharat pathak" <bha...@arithos.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > � We can very well represent brickwall filter in FFT domain. > > > � Also we know that IFFT of brickwall will look like > > � sin(x)/x function extending towards +/- infinity. > > > � How to derive this using IFFT equation?? > > > Regards > > Bharat Pathak > > > Arithos Designswww.Arithos.com > > Hello Bharat, > > Seems you have use for easy prove equation (can prove by induction if > maths geek): > > sum (for i=0..N-1) of (ALPHA^i) = (1-ALPHA^N)/(1-ALPHA), good for > APLHA != 0 if N finite. > > Regards, > > Kamar Ruptan > DSP GuruAlso, don't use if ALPHA=1. Could use L'Hospitals rule or just use obvious result of N for ALPHA=1. Rest of ALPHA (not 0, not 1) is OK if N finite. Kamar Ruptan DSP Guru

Reply by ●February 22, 20082008-02-22

> >Hi Bharat, > If I remember correctly, you have copy of >the 2nd edition of my DSP book. Perhaps the >discussion on page 107 will be of some help to you. > >Regards, >[-Rick-]Hi Rick, On page 107 i have 3.12.1 Processing Gain of single DFT Can u tell me what section num and heading r u referring to? Thanks and Regards Bharat