OK, determining the two frequencies of a single DTMF pulse where the starting location of the pulse (mark) is known, under ideal conditions, using Goertzel , is like taking candy from a baby. After recording a sequence of marks and spaces I can once again determine their associated frequencies. The way I do this is to visually look at the recorded waveform. From there I can see the starting location of each mark. I then just manually enter them into my program. With Goertzel to the rescue the desired results are achieved. However, my question is how can I automate this process by finding the approximate location of each mark so I do not have to visually inspect the wave sequence? Due note, this is to be done in S/W on a PC, and that mark and space durations are of random length. Where a mark is the DTMF part and a space is what is between a mark. The total amount of samples will be made available for block processing as opposed to a real-time solution. It can be assumed that the mark amplitudes are much larger than the space amplitudes. Mark amplitudes are similar. For now, background noise and harmonics need not be considered. Suggestions would be appreciated on how to go about this task or what methods can be used so I can google. Thank-you _____________________________ Posted through www.DSPRelated.com

# Detecting DTMF Pulses

Started by ●March 6, 2014

Reply by ●March 7, 20142014-03-07

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 20:50:58 -0600, "Stacy" <22429@dsprelated> wrote:>OK, determining the two frequencies of a single DTMF pulse where the >starting location of the pulse (mark) is known, under ideal conditions, >using Goertzel , is like taking candy from a baby. > >After recording a sequence of marks and spaces I can once again determine >their associated frequencies. The way I do this is to visually look at the >recorded waveform. From there I can see the starting location of each mark. >I then just manually enter them into my program. With Goertzel to the >rescue the desired results are achieved. > >However, my question is how can I automate this process by finding the >approximate location of each mark so I do not have to visually inspect the >wave sequence? > >Due note, this is to be done in S/W on a PC, and that mark and space >durations are of random length. Where a mark is the DTMF part and a space >is what is between a mark. The total amount of samples will be made >available for block processing as opposed to a real-time solution. It can >be assumed that the mark amplitudes are much larger than the space >amplitudes. Mark amplitudes are similar. For now, background noise and >harmonics need not be considered.If this is a continuous process, I would suggest simulating an envelope detection circuit to track the peak volume. Use appropriate filtering and slew-limiting to avoid responding to extremely short noise spikes. Then set a threhhold for mark detection based on a fraction of the filtered peak amplitude. If you want to get fancier, run a separate filtered track of the minimum volume to discover the noise floor. Then use a threshhold that is about half way between these two tracks. If this is not a continuous process and you have the luxury of processing an entire block of data multiple times, then you can do an even better job by setting the threshold equal to the median volume level. As before, use slew-limiting and filtering to avoid responding to spike noise. And if you have all the time in the world, you can do even better by performing multiple DTMF trial extractions on all possible segments of the time series and keeping only those trial DTMF extractions for which the quality of the pitch extraction was high. The quality would be defined by how much of the energy was concentrated in the neighborhood of the expected DTMF frequencies. This last method can dig the information out of noise that would otherwise foil the envelope detection scheme, but this method is usually not practical from a computing resources point of view. If you are able to visually distinguish marks and spaces in the waveform, chances are the envelope detection and volume threshhold method will work just fine.

Reply by ●March 7, 20142014-03-07

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 20:50:58 -0600, "Stacy" <22429@dsprelated> wrote:>OK, determining the two frequencies of a single DTMF pulse where the >starting location of the pulse (mark) is known, under ideal conditions, >using Goertzel , is like taking candy from a baby. > >After recording a sequence of marks and spaces I can once again determine >their associated frequencies. The way I do this is to visually look at the >recorded waveform. From there I can see the starting location of each mark. >I then just manually enter them into my program. With Goertzel to the >rescue the desired results are achieved. > >However, my question is how can I automate this process by finding the >approximate location of each mark so I do not have to visually inspect the >wave sequence? > >Due note, this is to be done in S/W on a PC, and that mark and space >durations are of random length. Where a mark is the DTMF part and a space >is what is between a mark. The total amount of samples will be made >available for block processing as opposed to a real-time solution. It can >be assumed that the mark amplitudes are much larger than the space >amplitudes. Mark amplitudes are similar. For now, background noise and >harmonics need not be considered. > >Suggestions would be appreciated on how to go about this task or what >methods can be used so I can google. > >Thank-youSearch on "energy detection" or "envelope detection" to start with. You can combine the DTMF detection and energy detection as well if you're careful, since the DFT turns the tone(s) into spike(s) there's a lot of processing gain to exploit. If you use a sliding-window DFT instead of Goertzel you can let it run continuously and detect the presence and frequency of the tones simultaneously using some straightforward threshold techniques. Eric Jacobsen Anchor Hill Communications http://www.anchorhill.com

Reply by ●March 7, 20142014-03-07

Thank you Robert and Eric for the timely responses. ____||||_____||||__||||____||||__|||||___ |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||| Above is what my samples may look like. The vertical hashes represent a sum of two sinusoids. The vertical axis represents amplitude. The horizontal axis represents each sample number. With my computer program I manually enter the starting point of each sequence of vertical hashes. And the DTMF number is decoded. However, I wish for the approximate location of each starting location to be determined using only S/W. So, I do not believe an envelope detector can be used for a S/W only solution. I found the below link. http://netwerkt.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/goertzel-filter/ Maybe implementing the "tandemRTgoertzelFilter" will work. _____________________________ Posted through www.DSPRelated.com

Reply by ●March 7, 20142014-03-07

On 3/6/14 9:50 PM, Stacy wrote:> OK, determining the two frequencies of a single DTMF pulse where the > starting location of the pulse (mark) is known, under ideal conditions, > using Goertzel , is like taking candy from a baby. >well, i dunno if Goertzel is the best way to do it anyway. ...> Suggestions would be appreciated on how to go about this task or what > methods can be used so I can google.long ago, a little after i got my very first email address, i did a DTMF detector for someone and i didn't use Goertzel, but instead tuned a bunch of these peaking EQs (a wire in parallel with a BPF and gain) tuned to the various DTMF frequencies (i think there were 8) and, i think, some ring tones and a hangup blip, too. i think i had a peak gain of 40 dB and the half dB bandwidth was equal to the spacing of the DTMF frequencies. then a simple squared-envelope-follower after each one and a set of thresholds (that were relative to the total power of the signal). and a little logic in the software (like make sure there are not two or more columns lit up and same with the rows). worked fine, but i didn't do any quantitative study on it about how good. it just worked. -- r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Reply by ●March 7, 20142014-03-07

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:36:02 -0600, "Stacy" <22429@dsprelated> wrote:>Thank you Robert and Eric for the timely responses. > > >____||||_____||||__||||____||||__|||||___ > |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||| > > >Above is what my samples may look like. The vertical hashes represent a sum >of two sinusoids. The vertical axis represents amplitude. The horizontal >axis represents each sample number. > >With my computer program I manually enter the starting point of each >sequence of vertical hashes. And the DTMF number is decoded. > >However, I wish for the approximate location of each starting location to >be determined using only S/W.You can do that in either the time or frequency domain, as I described previously. There are some advantages to doing it in the frequency domain since the tone locations are known.>So, I do not believe an envelope detector can be used for a S/W only >solution.Why not? An envelope or energy detector isn't any more complex than the Goertzel algorithm or other DTMF detectors.>I found the below link. > >http://netwerkt.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/goertzel-filter/ > >Maybe implementing the "tandemRTgoertzelFilter" will work. > > > > > >_____________________________ >Posted through www.DSPRelated.comEric Jacobsen Anchor Hill Communications http://www.anchorhill.com

Reply by ●March 8, 20142014-03-08

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:36:02 -0600, Stacy wrote:> Thank you Robert and Eric for the timely responses. > > > ____||||_____||||__||||____||||__|||||___ > |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||| > > > Above is what my samples may look like. The vertical hashes represent a > sum of two sinusoids. The vertical axis represents amplitude. The > horizontal axis represents each sample number. > > With my computer program I manually enter the starting point of each > sequence of vertical hashes. And the DTMF number is decoded. > > However, I wish for the approximate location of each starting location > to be determined using only S/W. > So, I do not believe an envelope detector can be used for a S/W only > solution.Then you don't understand what Robert and Eric are trying to tell you. If envelope detection can work at all (and it can work well here), then it can work just fine in a "software only" case (by which I assume you mean "unsupervised", not "software aided by hardware"). Implemented properly, bandpass filtering of any sort (of which the sliding DFT is one sort) followed by envelope detection should give you eight "envelope" outputs (seven if you're only implementing a 3x4 DTMF keypad). When a tone happens, two of these outputs should stand head and shoulders above the rest. You should be able to detect the beginning and ending of each digit quite easily, unless there is noise present. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com

Reply by ●March 10, 20142014-03-10

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:50:58 PM UTC-5, Stacy wrote:> OK, determining the two frequencies of a single DTMF pulse where the > > starting location of the pulse (mark) is known, under ideal conditions, > > using Goertzel , is like taking candy from a baby. > > > > After recording a sequence of marks and spaces I can once again determine > > their associated frequencies. The way I do this is to visually look at the > > recorded waveform. From there I can see the starting location of each mark. > > I then just manually enter them into my program. With Goertzel to the > > rescue the desired results are achieved. > > > > However, my question is how can I automate this process by finding the > > approximate location of each mark so I do not have to visually inspect the > > wave sequence? > > > > Due note, this is to be done in S/W on a PC, and that mark and space > > durations are of random length. Where a mark is the DTMF part and a space > > is what is between a mark. The total amount of samples will be made > > available for block processing as opposed to a real-time solution. It can > > be assumed that the mark amplitudes are much larger than the space > > amplitudes. Mark amplitudes are similar. For now, background noise and > > harmonics need not be considered. > > > > Suggestions would be appreciated on how to go about this task or what > > methods can be used so I can google. > > > > Thank-you > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________ > > Posted through www.DSPRelated.comBesides what the others have added, an advantage of using a DFT based approach, is you can use parseval's relation to ensure that when you do detect tones, that most of the energy is in just those tones and not across the whole band. Try running voice through your DTMF detector and see how much spoofing you get. Another approach passes the data through a pair of band pass filters. One band covers the row frequencies and the other band covers the column frequences. After each of these two filters you perform a 2nd order LPC analysis which will directly yield the frequency of the row and column tones. A 2nd order LPC is not very complicated. There are some appnotes that cover this process. While some LPC variations on DTMF decoding were patented, some of those patents are now expired. If you are just doing this for yourself, then the patent issue doesn't really matter; if not just for you - be advised. Clay

Reply by ●March 10, 20142014-03-10

Clay, thanks for taking the time to respond with your suggestions. This project is for my own curiosity so patent issues do not apply. To reiterate, at this stage I have either ‘spaces’ that have a value close to zero or two sine waves (marks). The challenge right now is finding where the ‘marks’ are. If I expand this project I know there will a whole plethora of other issues to resolve. I) It has been suggested to use a sliding DFT. Q1) Is that an actual plain vanilla DFT or an FFT? Q2) If it is a DFT, can I assume it would mean making the calculation using only the 8 DTMF tones? II) It has also been suggested to use an envelope detector. My search entering the phrase “envelope detector” has not been too fruitful since I wish to implement this in s/w. I seem to be getting the notion from my search that using the Hilbert Transform for an envelope detector is the way to go. I’m also still trying to find a s/w algorithm to do the Hilbert Transform. III) Of course there is the old fashion way. Just use brute force and count the samples that exceed an absolute value threshold and there is the location of a ‘mark’. Knowing that, Goertzel works fine. But honestly, I would prefer to achieve desired results with a more elegant solution such as (I) or (II), rather than what amounts to counting on my fingers and toes. Cheers _____________________________ Posted through www.DSPRelated.com

Reply by ●March 10, 20142014-03-10

On Monday, March 10, 2014 2:54:30 PM UTC-4, Stacy wrote:> Clay, thanks for taking the time to respond with your suggestions. > > > > This project is for my own curiosity so patent issues do not apply. > > > > To reiterate, at this stage I have either 'spaces' that have a value > > close to zero or two sine waves (marks). The challenge right now is > > finding where the 'marks' are. If I expand this project I know there > > will a whole plethora of other issues to resolve. > > > > I) It has been suggested to use a sliding DFT. > > Q1) Is that an actual plain vanilla DFT or an FFT? > > Q2) If it is a DFT, can I assume it would mean making the calculation > > using only the 8 DTMF tones? > > > > II) It has also been suggested to use an envelope detector. My search > > entering the phrase "envelope detector" has not been too fruitful > > since I wish to implement this in s/w. I seem to be getting the notion from > > my search that using the Hilbert Transform for an envelope detector is the > > way to go. I'm also still trying to find a s/w algorithm to do the > > Hilbert Transform. > > > > III) Of course there is the old fashion way. Just use brute force and > > count the samples that exceed an absolute value threshold and there is the > > location of a 'mark'. Knowing that, Goertzel works fine. > > > > But honestly, I would prefer to achieve desired results with a more elegant > > solution such as (I) or (II), rather than what amounts to counting on my > > fingers and toes. > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > _____________________________ > > Posted through www.DSPRelated.comStacy, Yes, a sliding DFT works with a single bin frequency. You can certainy adapt it to work with 8 bins. You certainly don't need to do the FFT as that is likely more computationaly costly than just 8 DFTS. The advantage of parseval's that I mentioned earlier is it relates the total energy in the time domain to the total energy in the frequency domain. In the standard case, you calculate the total energy in the frequency domain by using the two loadest frequencies and comparing that to the total time domain energy. Others have done antispoofing by not only doing DFTS for the 8 row/column frequencies but also at their 1st harmonic frequencies (double the fundamentals). Tones will have little energy in the 1st harmonic bins whereas voice often does. You can do envelope detection with a Hilbert method, but it may be simpler to do by simply rectifying the signal (absolute value it) and feed that to an attack/decay function (fast attack - slow release). Very simple example - perform as iteration 1) M=M*gamma 2) if (|X|), then M= |X| 3) compare M to a trigger threshold M is a memory element, and X is the current signal value. gamma is a decay factor; try something like 0.998 Since this is a personal project, there are lots of things for you to experiment with. Search for some appnotes for DTMF detection from the 1980s. There were quite a few back then dealing with DTMF, MF-R1, MFC-R2, and supervisory tone detection. Clay