On 28/02/2017 10:15 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've > resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. > > Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of congenital > hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane motors > in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing loss, > which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. > > So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. > The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed > sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not > sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps and > ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >Just you wait until hearing aids come with unavoidable advertisements played on them at intervals. Sylvia.
Ooooh, trippy! But I think my house is haunted
Started by ●February 27, 2017
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
On 28/02/17 01:55, amdx wrote:> On 2/27/2017 7:15 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 28/02/17 00:27, eric.jacobsen@ieee.org wrote: >>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 17:15:30 -0600, Tim Wescott >>> <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote: >>> >>>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>>> >>>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of >>>> congenital >>>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane motors >>>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing loss, >>>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>>> >>>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps and >>>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.wescottdesign.com >>> >>> >>> Do you have any control over the equalization? Would be fun to mess >>> with, I think. >>> >>> A technician I used to work with had pretty substantial hearing loss, >>> particularly at higher frequencies. Once in the lab a piece of test >>> equipment started a high-pitched alarm tone for some reason, and since >>> it wasn't anything I was working on I was ignoring it, but was trying >>> to converse with my partially-deaf technician. He seemed a little >>> pained for a bit and then asked me, "Is there a loud tone or something >>> going on right now?" I told him there was, and even though he >>> couldn't hear it what he had noticed was that the AGC in his hearing >>> aid had suddenly turned everything way down. He'd experienced that >>> enough to know the probable cause. >>> >>> That was probably twenty-five years ago. My understanding is that >>> the DSP in hearing aids is pretty sophisticated these days, but I >>> don't know how much control they give the user. >> >> Whatever they do, it won't be enough! The ear/brain >> combination is astoundingly non-linear. >> >> In practice it is sufficient to have half a dozen >> variations (speech, music, wind, sports, etc) - and then >> simply to cycle through them until the least problematic >> variant is found for that locale. >> > > I'm impressed with how well Rush Limbaugh does with his cochlear implants. I > wonder how long it took him to learn to understand > phone call audio. (possibly easier than regular speech with room noise)I've never heard Limbaugh, but his reputation over here makes me wonder whether he needs to hear what his callers are saying :) I'm seriously surprised that a cochlear implant can be good enough for an adult to regain hearing. It appears that he has had one since 2001, and uses "a teleprompter and staff assistance to answer calls" https://www.verywell.com/cause-sudden-hearing-loss-rush-limbaugh-1046179
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
On 28/02/17 05:32, rickman wrote:> On 2/27/2017 8:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 27/02/17 23:15, Tim Wescott wrote: >>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>> >>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of congenital >>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane motors >>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing loss, >>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>> >>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps and >>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >> >> Welcome to a club you didn't want to join. >> >> If you have a look at manufacturer's catalogues, there >> are a vast number of different hearing aids, all of >> which are customised to your hearing loss and ear canal. > > I've talked to some people in the field and I've never gotten a good idea of > just what is required to fit a hearing aid to the person. I get that the > hearing loss is unique to each person. That is essentially controlled by an > equalizer to tailor the frequency response to the user's hearing loss.Indeed, but the equaliser is level dependent and horribly non-linear. If the ear/brain wasn't so non-linear, audio compression wouldn't be anywhere near so effective!> But what aspect of the ear canal needs to be custom tailored to? Are you > talking about a mechanical fit issue? I don't follow that. My friend's hearing > aids have replaceable ear pieces just like many bluetooth headphones. They are > not tailored at all. Is it a matter of the ear canal affecting how the unit > works with that person? > > Inquiring minds want to know.Think in terms of resonant cavities, high gain amplifiers with the input near the output. It used to be that they had to keep the microphone on your chest to avoid howlback! The audio assessment is obviously of the ear and canal alone. During final fitting they insert a very fine tube into the ear canal alongside the aid, determine the transfer function in the canal, and apply the inverse function.>> How to choose the "best" one for you is something >> I simply don't understand. The key issue is that >> the ear/bain combination is one of the most non-linear >> systems I know of. >> >> A "nasty" of course is the replacement cost, >> because one way or another they /will/ breakdown >> or be lost (I know of people whose dogs ate their >> hearing aid!).
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:>On 28/02/17 01:55, amdx wrote:>> I'm impressed with how well Rush Limbaugh does with his cochlear implants. I >> wonder how long it took him to learn to understand >> phone call audio. (possibly easier than regular speech with room noise)>I've never heard Limbaugh, but his reputation over >here makes me wonder whether he needs to hear what >his callers are saying :)In this the upload information requirement is no more than a few bits per hour. S.
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
On 2/28/2017 4:17 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 28/02/17 05:32, rickman wrote: >> On 2/27/2017 8:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> On 27/02/17 23:15, Tim Wescott wrote: >>>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>>> >>>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of >>>> congenital >>>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane motors >>>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing >>>> loss, >>>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>>> >>>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps and >>>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >>> >>> Welcome to a club you didn't want to join. >>> >>> If you have a look at manufacturer's catalogues, there >>> are a vast number of different hearing aids, all of >>> which are customised to your hearing loss and ear canal. >> >> I've talked to some people in the field and I've never gotten a good >> idea of >> just what is required to fit a hearing aid to the person. I get that the >> hearing loss is unique to each person. That is essentially controlled >> by an >> equalizer to tailor the frequency response to the user's hearing loss. > > Indeed, but the equaliser is level dependent and > horribly non-linear.I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean the requirement for the equalizer is level dependent or that existing hearing aid equalizers are level dependent?> If the ear/brain wasn't so non-linear, audio > compression wouldn't be anywhere near so effective!??? How does this impact a hearing aid?>> But what aspect of the ear canal needs to be custom tailored to? Are you >> talking about a mechanical fit issue? I don't follow that. My >> friend's hearing >> aids have replaceable ear pieces just like many bluetooth headphones. >> They are >> not tailored at all. Is it a matter of the ear canal affecting how >> the unit >> works with that person? >> >> Inquiring minds want to know. > > Think in terms of resonant cavities, high gain > amplifiers with the input near the output. It > used to be that they had to keep the microphone > on your chest to avoid howlback! > > The audio assessment is obviously of the ear > and canal alone. > > During final fitting they insert a very fine tube > into the ear canal alongside the aid, determine > the transfer function in the canal, and apply > the inverse function.Really? Different ear canals are acoustically that much different? -- Rick C
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
On 28/02/17 21:02, rickman wrote:> On 2/28/2017 4:17 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 28/02/17 05:32, rickman wrote: >>> On 2/27/2017 8:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>> On 27/02/17 23:15, Tim Wescott wrote: >>>>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>>>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>>>> >>>>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of >>>>> congenital >>>>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane motors >>>>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing >>>>> loss, >>>>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>>>> >>>>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>>>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>>>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>>>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps and >>>>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >>>> >>>> Welcome to a club you didn't want to join. >>>> >>>> If you have a look at manufacturer's catalogues, there >>>> are a vast number of different hearing aids, all of >>>> which are customised to your hearing loss and ear canal. >>> >>> I've talked to some people in the field and I've never gotten a good >>> idea of >>> just what is required to fit a hearing aid to the person. I get that the >>> hearing loss is unique to each person. That is essentially controlled >>> by an >>> equalizer to tailor the frequency response to the user's hearing loss. >> >> Indeed, but the equaliser is level dependent and >> horribly non-linear. > > I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean the requirement for the > equalizer is level dependent or that existing hearing aid equalizers are level > dependent?The requirement, since the system it is counteracting is highly non-linear.>> If the ear/brain wasn't so non-linear, audio >> compression wouldn't be anywhere near so effective! > > ??? How does this impact a hearing aid?It doesn't; it is an everyday illustration of the extent of the non-linearity.>>> But what aspect of the ear canal needs to be custom tailored to? Are you >>> talking about a mechanical fit issue? I don't follow that. My >>> friend's hearing >>> aids have replaceable ear pieces just like many bluetooth headphones. >>> They are >>> not tailored at all. Is it a matter of the ear canal affecting how >>> the unit >>> works with that person? >>> >>> Inquiring minds want to know. >> >> Think in terms of resonant cavities, high gain >> amplifiers with the input near the output. It >> used to be that they had to keep the microphone >> on your chest to avoid howlback! >> >> The audio assessment is obviously of the ear >> and canal alone. >> >> During final fitting they insert a very fine tube >> into the ear canal alongside the aid, determine >> the transfer function in the canal, and apply >> the inverse function. > > Really? Different ear canals are acoustically that much different?Yes, they are sufficiently different: peering into half a dozen should convince you of that! Another illustration is that many people's ear canal is too small for them to be able to use "in canal" aids.
Reply by ●February 28, 20172017-02-28
On 2/28/2017 6:42 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:> On 28/02/17 21:02, rickman wrote: >> On 2/28/2017 4:17 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> On 28/02/17 05:32, rickman wrote: >>>> On 2/27/2017 8:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>>> On 27/02/17 23:15, Tim Wescott wrote: >>>>>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>>>>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>>>>> >>>>>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of >>>>>> congenital >>>>>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane >>>>>> motors >>>>>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing >>>>>> loss, >>>>>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>>>>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>>>>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>>>>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps >>>>>> and >>>>>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >>>>> >>>>> Welcome to a club you didn't want to join. >>>>> >>>>> If you have a look at manufacturer's catalogues, there >>>>> are a vast number of different hearing aids, all of >>>>> which are customised to your hearing loss and ear canal. >>>> >>>> I've talked to some people in the field and I've never gotten a good >>>> idea of >>>> just what is required to fit a hearing aid to the person. I get >>>> that the >>>> hearing loss is unique to each person. That is essentially controlled >>>> by an >>>> equalizer to tailor the frequency response to the user's hearing loss. >>> >>> Indeed, but the equaliser is level dependent and >>> horribly non-linear. >> >> I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean the requirement >> for the >> equalizer is level dependent or that existing hearing aid equalizers >> are level >> dependent? > > The requirement, since the system it is counteracting > is highly non-linear. > > >>> If the ear/brain wasn't so non-linear, audio >>> compression wouldn't be anywhere near so effective! >> >> ??? How does this impact a hearing aid? > > It doesn't; it is an everyday illustration of > the extent of the non-linearity. > > >>>> But what aspect of the ear canal needs to be custom tailored to? >>>> Are you >>>> talking about a mechanical fit issue? I don't follow that. My >>>> friend's hearing >>>> aids have replaceable ear pieces just like many bluetooth headphones. >>>> They are >>>> not tailored at all. Is it a matter of the ear canal affecting how >>>> the unit >>>> works with that person? >>>> >>>> Inquiring minds want to know. >>> >>> Think in terms of resonant cavities, high gain >>> amplifiers with the input near the output. It >>> used to be that they had to keep the microphone >>> on your chest to avoid howlback! >>> >>> The audio assessment is obviously of the ear >>> and canal alone. >>> >>> During final fitting they insert a very fine tube >>> into the ear canal alongside the aid, determine >>> the transfer function in the canal, and apply >>> the inverse function. >> >> Really? Different ear canals are acoustically that much different? > > Yes, they are sufficiently different: peering into > half a dozen should convince you of that! > > Another illustration is that many people's ear canal > is too small for them to be able to use "in canal" > aids.Again, you are not clear. Is that too small a diameter or too short a length? The last time I had my ears looked at after discussing my hearing, the doctor wanted me to clean my ears with special stuff because of the wax he saw. Later I realized he was not seeing wax on my ear drum. He was looking at my ear canal. A long time ago I found out my ear canal is very curved. Doctors have trouble getting the inspection scope in there to see the ear drum. At 20 kHz sound wavelength is 17 mm or about two thirds of an inch. At 10 kHz it is twice that. I don't think the frequency range I need to hear (human voice) is much impacted by the shape of my ear canal. -- Rick C
Reply by ●March 1, 20172017-03-01
On 01/03/17 00:08, rickman wrote:> On 2/28/2017 6:42 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 28/02/17 21:02, rickman wrote: >>> On 2/28/2017 4:17 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>> On 28/02/17 05:32, rickman wrote: >>>>> On 2/27/2017 8:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>>>> On 27/02/17 23:15, Tim Wescott wrote: >>>>>>> My wife's been after me for decades to get my hearing tested. I've >>>>>>> resisted until now because only old people need hearing aids. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Turns out that I have a hearing loss pattern that's typical of >>>>>>> congenital >>>>>>> hearing loss. I had thought it was from too many model airplane >>>>>>> motors >>>>>>> in my youth. On reflection, it's consistent with my Dad's hearing >>>>>>> loss, >>>>>>> which _he_ attributed to ear surgery when he was three. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, I'm back from the audiologist with a loaner pair of hearing aids. >>>>>>> The part about being hyper-aware of all sorts of formerly-unnoticed >>>>>>> sounds is kinda like being on acid, except it's only hearing and not >>>>>>> sight, smell, taste or cognition. But I'm hearing all these bumps >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> ticks and thumps -- I think the house is haunted. >>>>>> >>>>>> Welcome to a club you didn't want to join. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have a look at manufacturer's catalogues, there >>>>>> are a vast number of different hearing aids, all of >>>>>> which are customised to your hearing loss and ear canal. >>>>> >>>>> I've talked to some people in the field and I've never gotten a good >>>>> idea of >>>>> just what is required to fit a hearing aid to the person. I get >>>>> that the >>>>> hearing loss is unique to each person. That is essentially controlled >>>>> by an >>>>> equalizer to tailor the frequency response to the user's hearing loss. >>>> >>>> Indeed, but the equaliser is level dependent and >>>> horribly non-linear. >>> >>> I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean the requirement >>> for the >>> equalizer is level dependent or that existing hearing aid equalizers >>> are level >>> dependent? >> >> The requirement, since the system it is counteracting >> is highly non-linear. >> >> >>>> If the ear/brain wasn't so non-linear, audio >>>> compression wouldn't be anywhere near so effective! >>> >>> ??? How does this impact a hearing aid? >> >> It doesn't; it is an everyday illustration of >> the extent of the non-linearity. >> >> >>>>> But what aspect of the ear canal needs to be custom tailored to? >>>>> Are you >>>>> talking about a mechanical fit issue? I don't follow that. My >>>>> friend's hearing >>>>> aids have replaceable ear pieces just like many bluetooth headphones. >>>>> They are >>>>> not tailored at all. Is it a matter of the ear canal affecting how >>>>> the unit >>>>> works with that person? >>>>> >>>>> Inquiring minds want to know. >>>> >>>> Think in terms of resonant cavities, high gain >>>> amplifiers with the input near the output. It >>>> used to be that they had to keep the microphone >>>> on your chest to avoid howlback! >>>> >>>> The audio assessment is obviously of the ear >>>> and canal alone. >>>> >>>> During final fitting they insert a very fine tube >>>> into the ear canal alongside the aid, determine >>>> the transfer function in the canal, and apply >>>> the inverse function. >>> >>> Really? Different ear canals are acoustically that much different? >> >> Yes, they are sufficiently different: peering into >> half a dozen should convince you of that! >> >> Another illustration is that many people's ear canal >> is too small for them to be able to use "in canal" >> aids. > > Again, you are not clear. Is that too small a diameter or too short a length?Yes ;) Too narrow in my case.> The last time I had my ears looked at after discussing my hearing, the doctor > wanted me to clean my ears with special stuff because of the wax he saw.Over here the "special stuff" is any cooking oil for a week. Then the ears are syringed with a pulsating water jet by generic nurses, or in extreme cases, suction tweezers under using microscope in a local audiology centre. I find a daily immersive hot bath followed by reaming out my ears with toilet paper is sufficient :) OTOH "Otex" (urea hydrogen peroxide) is disliked and distrusted over here, since it can cause problems.There's circumstantial evidence it did for me.> Later > I realized he was not seeing wax on my ear drum. He was looking at my ear > canal. A long time ago I found out my ear canal is very curved. Doctors have > trouble getting the inspection scope in there to see the ear drum.That's the kind of variation that doesn't surprise me.> At 20 kHz sound wavelength is 17 mm or about two thirds of an inch. At 10 kHz > it is twice that. I don't think the frequency range I need to hear (human > voice) is much impacted by the shape of my ear canal.I don't have an explanation for that. "My" explanation came from the audiologist after fitting. It is not inconceivable that he is wrong.
