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Re: Blinded by math. Was "How does an inverter affect phase?"

Started by Eric Jacobsen June 20, 2006
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>> Oli Filth wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>> That's a joke, no? >>> >>> Jerry >> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. > > It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at > DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, > change the maths!
Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the other, and I'll accept the math. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote: >> Andor wrote: >>> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Oli Filth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>>>> That's a joke, no? >>>>> >>>>> Jerry >>>> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >>>> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. >>> It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at >>> DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, >>> change the maths! >> Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the >> other, and I'll accept the math. > > You mean like 1 and -1 ?
Those lie on a continuum. You will find the same values in a single phase of a single sinusoid. Calling different polarities of DC different phases contorts common sense to fit a misguided reading of the math. Phase is a continuous function. To define a special phase with only two discrete values as an "explanation" is mere sophistry. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;
Andor wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote: >> Andor wrote: >>> Eric Jacobsen wrote: >>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:06:03 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Oli Filth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>>> So my question is, if we want to apply a phase-shift to a (complex) DC >>>>>> component, in which direction should it be applied, and why? >>>>> That's a joke, no? >>>>> >>>>> Jerry >>>> I think I know what he means: A complex phasor can have a "phase" in >>>> relation to the coordinate grid and still be DC. >>> It's useless to argue. Jerry does not believe in the phase response at >>> DC (hence this whole thread), and if the maths says otherwise, well, >>> change the maths! >> Show me two simultaneous DC signals which are out of phase one with the >> other, and I'll accept the math. > > You mean like 1 and -1 ?
Those lie on a continuum. You will find the same values in a single phase of a single sinusoid. Calling different polarities of DC different phases contorts common sense to fit a misguided reading of the math. Phase is a continuous function. To define a special phase with only two discrete values as an "explanation" is mere sophistry. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. &#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;&#2013266095;